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Plymouth & Oxford Released 09/07/2017 at 20:08 #96256 | |
postal
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Moderator note - Split from Plymouth & Oxford Released headshot119 in post 96253 said: The system files available via the website aren't always the latest version. In line with a lot of other software (Windows being a major example) the latest version is only available via an updater.Nothing wrong with the principle but we see enough complaints on the Forum about problems with updating to make me wonder whether we've got the communications right. I haven't thought through how that might be managed but there does seem to be a generic problem. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 11:27 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Plymouth & Oxford Released 09/07/2017 at 20:13 #96257 | |
headshot119
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postal in post 96256 said:Nothing wrong with the principle but we see enough complaints on the Forum about problems with updating to make me wonder whether we've got the communications right. I haven't thought through how that might be managed but there does seem to be a generic problem.Once people get up to 4.6.4 where it automatically checks if there's an update available and flashes at you I think we'll see a down turn in the number of people asking. Though I wonder if there's anything more we can do? "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 11:23 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Plymouth & Oxford Released 09/07/2017 at 20:20 #96258 | |
MarkC
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headshot119 in post 96257 said:postal in post 96256 said:A lot of existing users who have not updated tended to have 4.5.8 and eariler and not heeded advice to updte by downloading system files again due to and the latest are users not heeding the advice to run as administrator or downloading the system files from site again for certain versions prior to 4.6.3. (cannot remember versions off the top off my my head, but those are the 2 major reason for updates by users not going to planNothing wrong with the principle but we see enough complaints on the Forum about problems with updating to make me wonder whether we've got the communications right. I haven't thought through how that might be managed but there does seem to be a generic problem.Once people get up to 4.6.4 where it automatically checks if there's an update available and flashes at you I think we'll see a down turn in the number of people asking. Though I wonder if there's anything more we can do? Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 11:23 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Plymouth & Oxford Released 09/07/2017 at 20:41 #96259 | |
Peter Bennet
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mark265 in post 96258 said:headshot119 in post 96257 said:I recall there was an issue with updating a version a while ago but I can't recall how I updated to 4.6.4 and how easy it was. Reading the above it seems to need actions beyond just clicking on update to get from 4.6.3 to 4.6.4. Should we have 4.6.4 as the one people will download, I presume thereafter it should update as one would expect?postal in post 96256 said:A lot of existing users who have not updated tended to have 4.5.8 and eariler and not heeded advice to updte by downloading system files again due to and the latest are users not heeding the advice to run as administrator or downloading the system files from site again for certain versions prior to 4.6.3. (cannot remember versions off the top off my my head, but those are the 2 major reason for updates by users not going to planNothing wrong with the principle but we see enough complaints on the Forum about problems with updating to make me wonder whether we've got the communications right. I haven't thought through how that might be managed but there does seem to be a generic problem.Once people get up to 4.6.4 where it automatically checks if there's an update available and flashes at you I think we'll see a down turn in the number of people asking. Though I wonder if there's anything more we can do? Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 11:24 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Plymouth & Oxford Released 09/07/2017 at 21:02 #96260 | |
MarkC
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Peter Bennet in post 96259 said:mark265 in post 96258 said:far as I can recall 4.6.3 (that currently in download area is ok for updating normally.headshot119 in post 96257 said:I recall there was an issue with updating a version a while ago but I can't recall how I updated to 4.6.4 and how easy it was. Reading the above it seems to need actions beyond just clicking on update to get from 4.6.3 to 4.6.4. Should we have 4.6.4 as the one people will download, I presume thereafter it should update as one would expect?postal in post 96256 said:A lot of existing users who have not updated tended to have 4.5.8 and eariler and not heeded advice to updte by downloading system files again due to and the latest are users not heeding the advice to run as administrator or downloading the system files from site again for certain versions prior to 4.6.3. (cannot remember versions off the top off my my head, but those are the 2 major reason for updates by users not going to planNothing wrong with the principle but we see enough complaints on the Forum about problems with updating to make me wonder whether we've got the communications right. I haven't thought through how that might be managed but there does seem to be a generic problem.Once people get up to 4.6.4 where it automatically checks if there's an update available and flashes at you I think we'll see a down turn in the number of people asking. Though I wonder if there's anything more we can do? 4.5.8 needed files downloading again from site and I think it was 4.6.0 (could be 4.6.1) required run as admin on updater (run as admin could be invoked in loader for updater to load with admin rights), the run as adminitrator started due to an update to windows 10 and geoff making a change to updater and loader, from what I can tell is the updater is making backup copys in program files which require admin rights to create files in the program files directory. Version 4.6.3 in the downloads section on site when trying to update does prompt for elivated rights when user tries to update, (I installed on a new PC this weekend using the version from downloads and it worked all fine for me) Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 11:24 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Plymouth & Oxford Released 09/07/2017 at 22:00 #96263 | |
postal
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The problem is how you cater for the paying customers who rarely visit the Forum, who are not interested in the under the bonnet workings and are still running on v4.5.8 or earlier because it works and they have had no reason to change. They make one of their rare visits to the site, see that there is a new sim they fancy and then are upset because it doesn't all fall into place in a seamless manner. Do you take the view that it's hard lines and their own stupid fault, do you answer their irate comments through the Forum because they haven't seen or searched for the large volume of correspondence about this or do you try and take some sort of pre-emptive action to guide them through updating their system files if not running the latest version? “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 11:24 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Plymouth & Oxford Released 09/07/2017 at 22:08 #96264 | |
Steamer
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postal in post 96263 said:The problem is how you cater for the paying customers who rarely visit the Forum, who are not interested in the under the bonnet workings and are still running on v4.5.8 or earlier because it works and they have had no reason to change. They make one of their rare visits to the site, see that there is a new sim they fancy and then are upset because it doesn't all fall into place in a seamless manner.I think it would've been helpful if the instruction to re-download to advance beyond 4.5.8 was sent out in one of the occasional 'SimSig newsletters' that are e-mailed to all Forum users. However, whether or not said group of users would read and act on that e-mail is another question. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 11:24 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Plymouth & Oxford Released 09/07/2017 at 22:32 #96266 | |
Meld
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How about adding a message to the product page that x simulation requires loader Vn.n.n or better . If your loader is older than this version pleas redownload the system files
Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 11:25 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Plymouth & Oxford Released 10/07/2017 at 00:07 #96267 | |
RainbowNines
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postal in post 96263 said:The problem is how you cater for the paying customers who rarely visit the Forum, who are not interested in the under the bonnet workings and are still running on v4.5.8 or earlier because it works and they have had no reason to change. They make one of their rare visits to the site, see that there is a new sim they fancy and then are upset because it doesn't all fall into place in a seamless manner.Plenty of people out there who would be scared off by the unusual action of "running as administrator" and an equal number who would be very suspicious of that. Another chunk simply wouldn't know what that meant. I think all three of these positions are reasonable, even more so if you've paid money. The concept that people are to blame for "not heeding advice" [from another post] is not fair. The user friendly option would appear to be an auto updater on the loader, which headshot suggests is indeed built in from the latest version. Until then, +1 to a note on the purchase page. Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 11:25 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Plymouth & Oxford Released 10/07/2017 at 00:12 #96268 | |
postal
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Meld in post 96266 said:How about adding a message to the product page that x simulation requires loader Vn.n.n or better . If your loader is older than this version pleas redownload the system filesOr perhaps a check when you click on the "Check for Updates" button that the version of the loader is compatible with the version needed to carry out the update or run the downloaded files and then an option for download and installation of the latest system files before the Updates process goes forward? Maybe even an abort to the process if the option is not taken up and then a message that the requested downloads are incompatible with the current Loader. No idea how complex it would be to code that but it could save a lot of individual and collective grief and also avoid any sort of ongoing communication programme. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 11:25 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Plymouth & Oxford Released 10/07/2017 at 07:09 #96271 | |
Peter Bennet
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I think the first thing to do is for someone to explain exactly what the problem is and the solution because I for one am totally confused just by this thread. Some people appear to have a problem, some say it's with this or that version, others that it's not, Win10 might be an issue, might not. Only once we have a detailed understanding of the problem can we sort out a solution or write a step by step guide. Pondering the rights and wrongs does not really get us anywhere. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 11:25 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Plymouth & Oxford Released 10/07/2017 at 09:39 #96274 | |
postal
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Peter Bennet in post 96271 said:I think the first thing to do is for someone to explain exactly what the problem is and the solution because I for one am totally confused just by this thread. Some people appear to have a problem, some say it's with this or that version, others that it's not, Win10 might be an issue, might not.Peter There is a lot of comment in the topic but as far as I can understand from reading through the detail the only relevant point is about which version of the loader is used when the Check for Updates button is pressed. There is no case in this thread where the issue has not been resolved by moving to the latest version of the loader. The Windows 10 point is a side issue which has arisen because there was an explanation that the loader had changed the way it worked because of the different way in which Windows 10 operated as compared with earlier versions. As with many other comments in this thread, this is just a side issue to the core problem of loader version. That is the issue where some people have not been aware of the changes and which has caused them problems. Can we try and find a way of helping those people rather than wanting to over-analyse things to death and kick the problem into the long grass, please. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 11:25 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Plymouth & Oxford Released 10/07/2017 at 11:00 #96275 | |
Peter Bennet
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postal in post 96274 said:Peter Bennet in post 96271 said:That's not the impression I get which is why I suggested we need to understand the exact problem and how it manifests itself.I think the first thing to do is for someone to explain exactly what the problem is and the solution because I for one am totally confused just by this thread. Some people appear to have a problem, some say it's with this or that version, others that it's not, Win10 might be an issue, might not.Peter If the answer is that one should simply download the current 4.6.3 loader, install and press click for updates, then that great and we can work with that. If it's more complicated than that, which is the impression I get (rightly or wrongly) then some analyses must be required to determine what the question is before trying to answer it. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 11:26 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Loader Update Issues - Solutions 10/07/2017 at 11:58 #96278 | |
headshot119
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The issues I can remember are: 4.5.8 - There was a bug introduced that didn't shut down SimSigLoader.exe when the refresher launched, and the refresher then couldn't update the loader. You could close the loader down manually after launching the refresher, launch the refresher manually, or re-download the system files from the website. There's been a later issue in the 4.6.X range where on some machines, the loader won't update because it doesn't have administrative privledges, Geoff has updated the refresher so it asks for these permissions. The choices are to right click and launch the loader in admin mode, or download the files from the website. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
Loader Update Issues - Solutions 10/07/2017 at 12:19 #96280 | |
postal
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headshot119 in post 96278 said:The issues I can remember are:So crystallising those issues, what needs to happen is that the user needs to be on a compatible version of the loader before running an update. That avoids any of the issues reported here or in the Plymouth and Oxford thread. The nature of some of the issues is such that it is not a solution just to press on the "Check for Updates" button as that may not update the loader if the user has previously missed some loader updates. I guess that can be handled in 2 ways: 1) As per my post earlier (#96268) advising at the start of the process that some of the downloads are incompatible with the loader version being run so that the user needs to download and re-install the system files. 2) After the update is run on an incompatible loader there is/are message(s) about files that could not be updated showing in the displayed log but no note as to the cause or rectification actions. Perhaps this needs reinforcing with a "click to OK" pop-up noting that the update did not complete and that the user is advised to download and re-install the system files then run the Check for Updates to bring the Loader to the latest spec. and download anything which failed previously. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 12:35 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Loader Update Issues - Solutions 10/07/2017 at 12:25 #96281 | |
postal
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Peter Bennet in post 96275 said:That's not the impression I get which is why I suggested we need to understand the exact problem and how it manifests itself.Peter Which posts are driving that impression? “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
Loader Update Issues - Solutions 10/07/2017 at 14:36 #96283 | |
Peter Bennet
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postal in post 96281 said:Peter Bennet in post 96275 said:https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/PostView/96256That's not the impression I get which is why I suggested we need to understand the exact problem and how it manifests itself.Peter refers to a "generic problem" https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/PostView/96257 says that getting to 4.6.4 resolves the problem but inference for good. https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/PostView/96258 and https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/PostView/96260 refers to the administrator point still being a problem https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/PostView/96274 Agrees that there is a problem but it's not a problem https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/PostView/96278 Do you need admin privileges or just download the current system files 4.6.3 and update? So I'm still unclear what the actual question is never mind the answer. At it's simplest my questions are: If someone has 4.5.8 what should they do? If someone has 4.6.3 what should they do? Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
Loader Update Issues - Solutions 10/07/2017 at 14:58 #96284 | |
MarkC
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Peter Bennet in post 96283 said:4.5.8, Users should download the system files from download section and install 4.6.3, when user clicks "check for updates" user is prompted for elevated privlages and all they need to do is click on yes. There is one or 2 versions of 4.6.x (4.6.0 and 4.6.1 I think) where the user needed to run loader as admin (by right clicking "SimSig loader" and selecting "run as administrator" ![]() Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 15:00 by MarkC Reason: edit Log in to reply |
Loader Update Issues - Solutions 10/07/2017 at 17:00 #96286 | |
postal
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Peter Bennet in post 96283 said:postal in post 96281 said:All of which problems are resolved in subsequent posts by using one of the two solutions suggested by Mark265.Peter Bennet in post 96275 said:https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/PostView/96256That's not the impression I get which is why I suggested we need to understand the exact problem and how it manifests itself.Peter So once again can I posit that the problem is a purely and simply a loader version issue. We cannot rely on users keeping their loaders up to date so we need to find some way to advise users with incompatible versions of the loader that they need to download and re-install. Please deconstruct that and tell me where I am missing the point. On the other hand, if my reasoning is correct we need to advise users at the stage where they press the "Check for Updates" button that their loader is incompatible with the current updates and that they need to download and re-install from the web-site. As an alternative if the "Check for Updates" log shows some failures we need to give the same advice. Or we can do nothing and get the same sort of correspondence on the Forum each time a new update is released. It's not my call but I know which is the most user-friendly option for those who use SimSig for enjoyment and are not into the technicalities of computers. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
Loader Update Issues - Solutions 10/07/2017 at 17:29 #96288 | |
Tempest Malice
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postal in post 96286 said:The problem is not quite that their old loader is incompatible with current updates, and more that it is incapable of updating itself in any way to any version; whereas the newest versions now can, as such a user with loader 4.6.3 and onwards can update fine and is prompted to by the "new" message in the check for updates button whenever they can. The trouble is that you can't add any message to the old loaders telling their users to redownload to get the update as their loader has no feature to display such a message, so their installation would have be updated to give such a message, at which point the user already has the up to date loader which can update itself and there is no longer (much) problem. (I say much as opposed to any, as in a somewhat separate point some users are (quite legitimately) wary of giving admin rights to, what is to them, a piece of downloaded software. (though as this is just a single button press this shouldn't be an ease of use issue just one of scary admin prompts) The fact is that just because we trust SimSig what reason would a person who has just joined the site have to give such trust to the loader. But the problem here is down to Microsoft now requiring admin rights for installers to do tasks which did not need such rights in the past and not one SimSig could change without a slightly needless and potentially complicated restructure of how the system files are stored on a users machine which I've no idea how it might also affect backwards compatiblity either.) Last edited: 10/07/2017 at 17:30 by Tempest Malice Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |
Loader Update Issues - Solutions 10/07/2017 at 17:39 #96289 | |
postal
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Tempest Malice in post 96288 said:The trouble is that you can't add any message to the old loaders telling their users to redownload to get the update as their loader has no feature to display such a message, so their installation would have be updated to give such a message, at which point the user already has the up to date loader which can update itself and there is no longer (much) problem.In which case rather than relying on the software on the user's machine, is there any option to have code on the server allowing it to read back from the Check for Updates log displayed on the user's machine. The server could then advise from the centre if there is a failure that the user should download and re-install. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
Loader Update Issues - Solutions 10/07/2017 at 18:02 #96290 | |
Peter Bennet
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postal in post 96286 said:Peter Bennet in post 96283 said:Well that was not clear to me at all given I went through all the posts and provided my comments as I did.postal in post 96281 said:All of which problems are resolved in subsequent posts by using one of the two solutions suggested by Mark265.Peter Bennet in post 96275 said:https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/PostView/96256That's not the impression I get which is why I suggested we need to understand the exact problem and how it manifests itself.Peter Marks post https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/PostView/96284 gives me the answer I was seeking. If people download 4.6.3 and press update and follow the instructions they will get 4.6.4. postal in post 96286 said: Which is the next step to having established what information the person needs to know; how to alert them to what to do. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
Loader Update Issues - Solutions 10/07/2017 at 18:08 #96291 | |
JamesN
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postal in post 96289 said:Tempest Malice in post 96288 said:Surely I'm missing something - any change in functionality for the updater/loader will require an update - including it somehow reading messages off the update server.The trouble is that you can't add any message to the old loaders telling their users to redownload to get the update as their loader has no feature to display such a message, so their installation would have be updated to give such a message, at which point the user already has the up to date loader which can update itself and there is no longer (much) problem.In which case rather than relying on the software on the user's machine, is there any option to have code on the server allowing it to read back from the Check for Updates log displayed on the user's machine. The server could then advise from the centre if there is a failure that the user should download and re-install. The loader update threads that accompany the updates have mentioned that a fresh install should be done; or that it should be run as administrator. I can't confirm as on mobile but I'm fairly sure the same advice is in the documentation/wiki pages. If that isn't yet enough updater does tell you the update has failed, and I'd thus hope any users still stuck will either then check those resources; or ask on the forum where there are a great many users more than happy to help. I fail to see how further re-invention of the wheel will improve the situation. Log in to reply |
Loader Update Issues - Solutions 10/07/2017 at 18:36 #96292 | |
Steamer
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Essentially, anyone who isn't already on Loader 4.6.4 will need to update to that themselves, either by running as an administrator or re-downloading the system files, or both. There's not a great deal that can be done about this, other than possibly sending an e-mail to all users about the problems, with instructions of how to fix it. Regarding the future, would it be an idea to include directions to the Forum and instructions to check the Forum and re-download the system files should the Updater fail? Of course, this would follow suggestions like checking the internet connection and waiting for a short period to rule out a brief outage at SimSig's end. This might catch a future issue that affects the Updater. While one of the issues was an error on Geoff or Clive's part, the admin rights is a case of external companies (Microsoft in this case) moving the goalposts. There were similar issues with some brands of Anti-Virus software rejecting downloads. I'm not sure how SimSig can reasonably anticipate these kinds of changes. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
Loader Update Issues - Solutions 10/07/2017 at 19:20 #96295 | |
postal
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A whole thread full of comments from technically literate and involved people. Nothing has yet addressed how to make it understandable for paying customers who do not fit that profile. It is all very well saying that the information is already there but it is clearly not presented in a fashion that a lot of users understand or appreciate. If it was, there wouldn't be as many queries and complaints on the Forum. How do we arrange things so that people such as those who have had trouble with the Plymouth or Oxford updates don't have problems in the future? It's not just a case of Geoff being on top of the SimSig side of the house; don't forget the unlimited capacity for Microsoft to block something which currently works and which may require a similar exercise of download and re-install. I've tried with some suggestions which have been shown to be technically infeasible but I'm not sure that no change is a tenable position. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: RainbowNines |