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Castle Cary blue signals

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Castle Cary blue signals 13/12/2024 at 16:41 #159459
OJH
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Does anyone have an idea what these two lights are at the eastern end of Castle Cary station (one mounted at ground level and one on a pole)? They seem like they have blue lenses and there's nothing on the panel to suggest they are controlled by the signalling. My only idea is that they are location lights for reversals in the sidings, but as far as I know these never saw regular use apart from engineering trains. I'm pretty sure these are non-standard?

Thanks in advance

Last edited: 13/12/2024 at 16:41 by OJH
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Castle Cary blue signals 13/12/2024 at 21:53 #159468
Jan
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They're probably the set back indicators mentioned in the Sectional Appendix. Those would be for trains coming from Taunton and then reversing back into platform three for the loco to run round and the train then to proceed towards Yeovil:

Quote:
"Set Back" Indicators. Propelling movements made from the East end entering the "Up and Down" Loop line via position light signal W782 prior to running-round must be brought to a stand immediately the locomotive has reached the Taunton side of signal W249.

No further movement must be made until the Guard/Shunter has operated the plunger fixed to a post opposite the loop line station platform. Depression of the plunger illuminates three double-sided white light indicators, provided at intervals of approximately 150 yards beside the loop line. The Guard/Shunter must keep the plunger depressed while the lights are required to be illuminated. When the leading vehicle of the movement has reached the plunger post the plunger must be released. When the train is at a stand the Guard/Shunter must advise the Signaller.

The Driver may commence propelling as soon as the lights are illuminated. The movement must be driven from the leading (Taunton end) cab at a maximum speed of 3 mph, and the Driver must be prepared to stop the movement immediately the lights are extinguished.

Trains being propelled under these arrangements prior to running-round must not exceed 32 SLUs inclusive of locomotive (and brake van where provided). The indicator equipment must be in working order and the movement may only be carried out in clear weather.

In all other circumstances the train must run-round at an alternative location.

Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
Last edited: 13/12/2024 at 21:53 by Jan
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Castle Cary blue signals 13/12/2024 at 22:16 #159469
TUT
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Worth bearing in mind of course that a blue lens/spectacle can be used to produce a lunar white light, presumably with filaments lamps in particular.

A blue-tinted spectacle of course was also traditionally used to produce the green light in oil-lamp-lit semaphores.

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Castle Cary blue signals 14/12/2024 at 12:24 #159481
OJH
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That's very interesting, thanks for digging it out. Was this ever a common movement - I can't recall any freight flows down to Yeovil and it seems like more infrastructure than you would expect for the odd CE working?
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Castle Cary blue signals 14/12/2024 at 15:16 #159485
Stephen Fulcher
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There would have been a lot of shunting around those yards in years gone by
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Castle Cary blue signals 15/12/2024 at 14:09 #159494
AlexH
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Idle curiousity - why is this set up needed here, but not in other similar locations?

The SA quote provided says that a train has to be brought to a stand immediately after the locomotive passes WN249 and is not to be moved until the driver sees the illuminated shunting light. But from the photo, a driver would not be able to see the shunting light (looking forwards) having stopped immediately after drawing past WN249.

These look relatively modern, what is the advantage of this over a pair of handheld radios and guard-to-driver instruction? Or even perhaps hand signals or fixed distance markers? You sometimes see stop boards for different train lengths in reversing sidings or locations.

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Castle Cary blue signals 15/12/2024 at 15:15 #159495
bill_gensheet
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AlexH in post 159494 said:
Idle curiousity - why is this set up needed here, but not in other similar locations?

The SA quote provided says that a train has to be brought to a stand immediately after the locomotive passes WN249 and is not to be moved until the driver sees the illuminated shunting light. But from the photo, a driver would not be able to see the shunting light (looking forwards) having stopped immediately after drawing past WN249.

These look relatively modern, what is the advantage of this over a pair of handheld radios and guard-to-driver instruction? Or even perhaps hand signals or fixed distance markers? You sometimes see stop boards for different train lengths in reversing sidings or locations.
The quote above says the lamps are double sided.

The design looks 1980's ish - same hardware as used for AHB and RETB loops. Would that predate common use of radios ? Suggests at the time of resignalling Castle Cary into Westbury PSB - 1985.

Likely a concern that running round could propell too far and ACOA a train from Weymouth ? Before resignalling such a move would not be required / possible.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/187334503@N06/galleries/72157714135574817/

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Castle Cary blue signals 15/12/2024 at 15:43 #159496
AlexH
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Thanks Bill, for taking the time.

I realise I made a geography error. I realise now when it says propelling from the Taunton end that the driver would be facing forward during the propelling part, and therefore able to see the shunting lights that are on the left.

I would rely on others for the commonplace nature of back to back radios in 1985 - I was not born for another few years.

The imperative for precision is made clear in the other part of your post. I assume this refers to triggering the signalling on the single line section to Yeovil. However, would the loco going to run round on the single line not trigger the same ACOA?

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Castle Cary blue signals 15/12/2024 at 21:00 #159504
bill_gensheet
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A loco running round would be signalled onto the single - so would be properly interlocked.
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Castle Cary blue signals 15/12/2024 at 23:01 #159506
DaveHarries
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bill_gensheet in post 159495 said:
Suggests at the time of resignalling Castle Cary into Westbury PSB - 1985.

Likely a concern that running round could propell too far and ACOA a train from Weymouth ? Before resignalling such a move would not be required / possible.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/187334503@N06/galleries/72157714135574817/

Thanks for sharing that photo link Bill.

I wonder if these lights have been used since the 1980s? I wouldn't have thought so and their use would probably be non-existent now given that the only train to reverse at Castle Cary during normal operation (and when the Glastonbury Festival is not taking place) is GWR's 5L90 (1847 Axminster - Exeter TMD) which operates via. Yeovil Jcn to Castle Cary and then back to Exeter via. Yeovil and Axminster.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y24097/2024-12-16/detailed

On another note there are some of these lights next to the Up Relief near Lawrence Hill / Stapleton Road and also St. Andrews Road (Avonmouth) has signals of a similar type as shown at https://www.flickr.com/photos/jjm2009/53517706008/

Dave

Last edited: 15/12/2024 at 23:09 by DaveHarries
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Castle Cary blue signals 16/12/2024 at 10:30 #159513
kbarber
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AlexH in post 159496 said:
Thanks Bill, for taking the time.

I realise I made a geography error. I realise now when it says propelling from the Taunton end that the driver would be facing forward during the propelling part, and therefore able to see the shunting lights that are on the left.

I would rely on others for the commonplace nature of back to back radios in 1985 - I was not born for another few years.

The imperative for precision is made clear in the other part of your post. I assume this refers to triggering the signalling on the single line section to Yeovil. However, would the loco going to run round on the single line not trigger the same ACOA?

Use of radios for shunting in this way was certainly not usual - and may have been entirely unknown - through to the end of the 1980s. In fact I don't recall any definite locations where driver/guard/shunter communication used radios up to the time I left the industry (1994), though I have a very vague memory somewhere of a SA instruction relating to radios being issued and returned at some location or other. Likely to be somewhere in Southern England if so, but I wouldn't even swear to that memory being accurate and I certainly don't know, if so, that the radios were to control shunting movements.

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Castle Cary blue signals 16/12/2024 at 10:52 #159514
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The lights at Lawrence Hill were for the propelling movement from the relief line into the Council Recycling Centre (dusty bins). Which no longer runs.
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Castle Cary blue signals 16/12/2024 at 11:03 #159515
bill_gensheet
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taffy in post 159514 said:
The lights at Lawrence Hill were for the propelling movement from the relief line into the Council Recycling Centre (dusty bins). Which no longer runs.
That format are usually shunting speed control signals, variously deployed in multiple colour / flashing variants....
http://www.railsigns.uk/sect10page1.html
and following pages.

The common themes are 'stop', 'slow speed to load/unload' and 'proceed normally'.

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Castle Cary blue signals 17/12/2024 at 23:00 #159544
DaveHarries
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bill_gensheet in post 159515 said:
taffy in post 159514 said:
The lights at Lawrence Hill were for the propelling movement from the relief line into the Council Recycling Centre (dusty bins). Which no longer runs.
That format are usually shunting speed control signals, variously deployed in multiple colour / flashing variants....
http://www.railsigns.uk/sect10page1.html
and following pages.

The common themes are 'stop', 'slow speed to load/unload' and 'proceed normally'.

Thanks. They rather remind me of the signals used on tram routes as seen in this photo:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/barkingbill/28294684056/

Dave

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