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| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 03:26 #69049 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
Several members, one in particular, have continually taken me to task for treating SimSig as a game rather than a sim, even though it has features of both depending on one's point of view. Here is part of one recent thread where confusion seems to arise. I've preferred the term player up till now as it is a single term (unlike SimSig user which sounds clumsy to me) to describe the activities of the user who loads a sim, chooses a TT or a saved sim, and runs it. From then on, I consider that person (myself) to be playing the the role of a signaller. Obviously, in real life all a signaller needs to do is get to work on time and on with the job. He has no way of removing trains, pausing time, and very little influence on editing timetables or communicating with drivers. So I've been looking for an alternative to "player" and "user", something that encompasses all the other tasks a person who runs SimSig needs to accomplish, and came up with the term simmer. Maybe pedantic to some of you, certainly not new, but instantly recognizable and distinguishable from signaller, which can be thought of as a subset of simmer. Unless someone can come up with a better term, I will try to remember to use simmer in my posts as a superset of signaller and hope others will also see this as a way to reduce confusion and annoyance. Last edited: 10/02/2015 at 03:30 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 04:46 #69050 | |
ozrail
197 posts |
I'm a little disappointed with your analogy of a real Signaller. It's ten time harder then any SimSig event. When trains are running late timetable changes are made by making trains first stop here or there or being crossed to another line to get around a late running all stations train. A lot of time is spent on the telephone talking to drivers, train controllers and station staff. Not to forget the need to talk to people working on the track or points, which can required them working between train movements. I used to dread seeing a mobile number show up on the telephone display which usually means it's someone who wants access to the track for anywhere from 5 minutes to three hours. Finally, the need to write train delay reports every time a train is delayed for 3 minutes or longer. The last report I did before retiring was for an ARS delay on another panel, which some bean counter had attributed to me. Having said all that SimSig is the closest simulation I've ever seen to the real thing and every time I run a simulation I'm acting as the Signaller, even to the point of trying the cover up my own delays, for better or worst. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: BarryM, sorabain, flabberdacks, larsht, Joathan23 |
| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 05:35 #69051 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:Having said all that SimSig is the closest simulation I've ever seen to the real thing and every time I run a simulation I'm acting as the Signaller (my emphasis), even to the point of trying the cover up my own delays, for better or worst.Apart from this part of it I find your post completely irrelevant. In fact, you've just reinforced the need for such a distinction. SimSig cannot help being anything other than an analogy, though a realistic one. Can YOU remove trains from your workstation? Can YOU pause time? Can YOU choose which TT you wish to run? Please stick to the topic. Last edited: 10/02/2015 at 05:37 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 08:00 #69054 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
How about attractive, intelligent, witty and sophisticated computer operator? 
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| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 08:05 #69055 | |
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sorabain
72 posts |
" said:Quote:This is particularly rude.Having said all that SimSig is the closest simulation I've ever seen to the real thing and every time I run a simulation I'm acting as the Signaller (my emphasis), even to the point of trying the cover up my own delays, for better or worst.Apart from this part of it I find your post completely irrelevant. In fact, you've just reinforced the need for such a distinction. I found ozrail's post very relevant since, despite not working in the industry, I found your "Obviously, in real life all a signaller needs to do is get to work on time and on with the job" line flippant and insulting. The "hand of god" tools you mention such as choosing which TT, removing trains, pausing time etc. all make the task of running the simulation easier than the real life job, not harder. Beyond that, I'm not sure there's much to gain in prescribing new terminology for SimSig users, unless you were intending to set up some play on words, as many of your posts do leave much of the community simmering. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: larsht, ozrail |
| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 08:14 #69057 | |
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ozrail
197 posts |
In real life pausing is called a meal break. Removing trains was always a dream that never came true.
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| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 08:30 #69058 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Can't any of you see that the purpose of this thread is to compare the two terms? In my original post I tried to simplify the role of a signaller compared with that of a simmer. That is not to denigrate the work of a real life signaller. I'm not paid to be a real life signaller, I act within the confines of SimSig. Why should I care how hard they work and what relevance that is to this thread? Every time I play SimSig solo I seem to be running three panels simultaneously, as if that wasn't hard enough. So far, no one has even bothered to comment on whether they consider simmer to be a useful term to distinguish the two. No, you all seem to be too busy grinding your own axes. Quote: I found ozrail's post very relevant since, despite not working in the industry, I found your "Obviously, in real life all a signaller needs to do is get to work on time and on with the job" line flippant and insulting.Why should that be flippant and insulting? A simmer's task is a superset of all this. He/she is required to select a sim, timetable and maybe a saved session before even starting. Quote: Beyond that, I'm not sure there's much to gain in prescribing new terminology for SimSig users, unless you were intending to set up some play on words, as many of your posts do leave much of the community simmering. What part of "simmer" don't you understand? Perhaps you and ozrail should simmer down so we can all discuss this thread rationally. Last edited: 10/02/2015 at 08:44 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 08:44 #69059 | |
Steamer
3986 posts |
I think there's a simple way to resolve this. If you like the term, use it, if you don't like it, don't use it. Natural language evolution will then decide whether all, none or some of us are still using it in a year's time.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 08:48 #69060 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks, Steamer, this is exactly what I said in my first post, if anyone bothered to read it to the end. Quote: Unless someone can come up with a better term, I will try to remember to use simmer in my posts as a superset of signaller and hope others will also see this as a way to reduce confusion and annoyance.I hope this makes it clear I'm not forcing anyone else to adopt this terminology. Log in to reply |
| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 09:09 #69061 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:Thanks, Steamer, this is exactly what I said in my first post, if anyone bothered to read it to the end.So that's cleared it all up so we can move along before I have to lock this one for argy-bargy. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 09:39 #69065 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Are we really discussing what we call the person playing/operating/using/simming/signalling on this simulation? It's a simulator, the clue is in the name. It simulates a real life UK IECC signalling centre and it does it very accurately within the bounds of a home computer environment. To argue that it's not accurate based on the fact that you can pause it or remove trains is simply rubbish. As an airline pilot I have to endure the simulator 4 times a year. The sim can be paused at any point, it can go from 10ft to 37000ft at the click of a button, it can move anywhere in the world instantly, the cabin crew, air traffic controller, de-icer, engineer are all the same person (That would be the instructor playing those roles) and the plane can be damaged and instantly repaired. By your definition it would not be a simulator, it would be a game and therefore when I go to the sim I'm simply playing at flying planes, or I'm not a pilot I'm a simmer! Trust me, it's not fun, but it is beneficial. Back to railways, signallers learning to use an IECC will have exactly the same "hand of God facilities" in their training suite. Should we change their job title to "simmers" when they're training? Simsig is a simulation and as such most users want it to simulate the real world as faithfully as possible. Those that want less accuracy can chose to use ARS where it doesn't really exist, they can replace signals in front of approaching trains without getting reprimanded and they can even remove trains. For those that want even more accuracy they can join multiplayer games and abide by real world rules. With the right host multiplayer can be taken to the next level with possessions to be taken, track staff calling in, a duty shift manager to make regulating decisions and someone to nudge you when you're holding a train at a red signal for no reason. Also on multiplayer games you only look after the area that a real signaller would look after. I believe both ends of the spectrum are catered for. I know you keep saying that because you're in Oz you can't join a multiplayer game, however there are many people in this community on many different time zones. There's also a lot of people who work nights or silly hours that can be online during the UK day so there's always the possibility of you joining in a MP session. I have plans to host an ultra realistic session at some point in the future, but as I've never hosted I will need to practice hosting. If you PM me, we can sort out a mutually agreeable time for me to try out my hosting skills and you to experience a MP game  I really, seriously believe that you would get a lot out of it (assuming I manage to get the host working!)But with regard to the original topic, nobody cares what you call them when they're playing or operating the sim. FF Last edited: 10/02/2015 at 09:41 by Firefly Log in to reply The following users said thank you: slatteryc, Airvan00, Finger, BarryM, Temple Meads, larsht, Aurora |
| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 10:14 #69066 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
What a strange thing to get upset about. It doesn't really matter what you call people who play/use Simsig. Call them what you like, no one cares. And if only being a Signaller was as easy as turning up on time and getting on with it. I used to work with a few who struggled to achieve even the first part of that...
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| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 11:52 #69069 | |
northroad
872 posts |
I think one should be very careful about calling people with associations. Look at the poor old chap many years ago who went trainspotting and just because it was cold and he needed many pockets for all of his notepads, combines and sandwiches he simply wore an ANORAK. Nowadays a lot of people have him to blame. I use SimSig and my name is Geoff. What do I want to be called.....yes you guessed it GEOFF and that will do nicely. Just my own personal view. Geoff Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 18:32 #69078 | |
jc92
3690 posts |
Simsignaller?
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Simmer up 10/02/2015 at 23:17 #69093 | |
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JamesN
1608 posts |
" said:Simsignaller?Funnily enough that's the term I've used in both Timetable and Simulation Manuals... Log in to reply |
| Simmer up 11/02/2015 at 05:17 #69094 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
jc92's suggestion "Simsignaller" is clever and the first alternative to my suggestion, although Steamer's earlier post about my being free to use whatever I choose hits the nail on the head too. Goes to show it's not that easy to come up with a better term to define a role, and even harder to obtain constructive criticism or even to justify the need for doing so. My only reservation about Simsignaller is that it localizes it to a particular simulator (Simsig) without explaining where this might differ from simply saying "signaller". Steamer's comment that the most acceptable term eventually becomes the norm is true. Firefly commented: Quote: the cabin crew, air traffic controller, de-icer, engineer are all the same person (That would be the instructor (my emphasis) playing those roles) and the plane can be damaged and instantly repaired. By your definition it would not be a simulator, it would be a game and therefore when I go to the sim I'm simply playing at flying planes, or I'm not a pilot I'm a simmer! Trust me, it's not fun, but it is beneficial.I've held a pilot's licence with a full instrument rating, I've flown simulators that require an instructor to assume the other roles, and there's no way I would consider that a game either, particularly when one factors in the hourly rate, so I don't know how you arrived at the conclusion that I was simply playing at flying planes. The big difference is that SimSig does not require an extra person to perform this in solo simming, though multiplayer games might be different. Let's just regard a "simmer" as a signaller when he happens to be wearing a different hat. I am trying to get away from the terms "game", "gamer", "gaming", preferring "signaller". Accordingly, a signaller using a simulator may sound more professional than a signaller playing one, though "using" still doesn't sound quite right. Maybe jc92 can come up with something better. Quote: I have plans to host an ultra realistic session at some point in the future, but as I've never hosted I will need to practice hosting. If you PM me, we can sort out a mutually agreeable time for me to try out my hosting skills and you to experience a MP. game I really, seriously believe that you would get a lot out of it (assuming I manage to get the host working!) Thank you for your sincere offer, which I would enjoy doing when circumstances permit. I will certainly PM you later about this. In the meantime I notice you used the term "MP.game", quite innocently, but see how hard it is to avoid this concept! (Perhaps "session"?) I think anyone who visits this thread should by now see what is trying to be achieved, and any further discussion will only serve to split more hairs, so unless anyone comes up with alternative terminology I'm quite happy for the moderators to close off this threasd. Thank you all for feedback and I assure you antagonism was the last thing on my mind when I began it. Last edited: 11/02/2015 at 05:30 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Simmer up 11/02/2015 at 08:39 #69098 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:Thank you for your sincere offer, which I would enjoy doing when circumstances permit. I will certainly PM you later about this. In the meantime I notice you used the term "MP.game", quite innocently, but see how hard it is to avoid this concept! (Perhaps "session"?)Not so innocently. Based on the fact that the MP stands for MultiPlayer, and a player plays games. Perhaps it could be called a multi person session. To be honest what I call it depends on who I'm talking to. If I was at an interview to try and get a signallers job I would tell the interviewers that I USE SimSig and if they don't know what SImsig is I'd describe it as a simulation. If my wife asks what I'm up to I'd say I'm playing a game of Simsig and she'd promptly call me an Anorak ;) Anyway, who cares. To me it's a bit of fun and I'd happily call it playing a game, although I do believe it's also a highly realistic simulation and we should strive to keep it as realistic as possible. FF Log in to reply The following user said thank you: andyb0607 |
| Simmer up 12/02/2015 at 07:35 #69145 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
When I was on the railway I used to proudly proclaim I had the biggest train set in the country to play with 
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| Simmer up 12/02/2015 at 08:31 #69148 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
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