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Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions

You are here: Home > Forum > General > Wiki > Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions

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Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 04:13 #28515
maxand
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1637 posts 		There is a page titled Train Describers in the Wiki which is about Train Descriptions (TD).

I had difficulty understanding this concept until one day I discovered that a train describer is not a train description at all, but a device built into a panel for managing all the berths that display train descriptions.

With this in mind I'd like to edit the title of this page to "Train Descriptions" and change references to it so that it removes confusion about the difference, but since it's so deeply cross-referenced I thought I'd ask permission in the forum first.
Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 04:13 by maxand
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 04:48 #28516
UKTrainMan
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1803 posts 		Disagree. The way I see it, that page isn't specifically about Train Descriptions, but is about the Train Describer berths ("TD berths"with mentions of Train Descriptions at it is relevant.
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 05:02 #28518
Meld
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1111 posts 		Hve to agree with UKTM, the page is fine as it is and totally correct,

Train Describers are what you see on the panel and identify the train moving along the sim from berth to berth

Train Descriptions are part of the timetable, which are the service details of the train viewable by clicking on the relevant ID shown by the train describer on the panel.
Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 05:05 by Meld
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 05:17 #28519
maxand
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1637 posts 		Well, something needs to be changed. The text begins:

Quote:
The train describer is the signaller's means of identifying trains.

Sure, but anyone reading this (me) would assume the writer meant the description, not the describer. Nowhere are we informed exactly what the difference is, and even the acronym "TD" isn't mentioned. Actually it's the train description that identifies trains; the describer simply implements the display. I know I'm sounding pedantic, but if we don't correct this it will continue to cause confusion.

There's also a glossary entry for TD which is properly done.

The internal title of this page is train_describer, so would it solve the problem if I changed the actual title from "Train Describers" to "Train Describer" and expanded the definition to make it clear to one and all that there is one Train Describer controlling multiple berths containing Train Descriptions?
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 05:40 #28520
maxand
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1637 posts 		MelD:

Quote:
Train Describers are what you see on the panel and identify the train moving along the sim from berth to berth

Train Descriptions are part of the timetable, which are the service details of the train viewable by clicking on the relevant ID shown by the train describer on the panel.

I agree with the second line, but not with the first.

Quote:
Train Describer (TD)
A computerised system that tracks trains along a route and allows a signaller to see what is where. It displays Train Reporting Numbers (aka Train Description or TDN).

Train Describer Berth (Berth, TD Berth)
Describing a small subsection of the railway, each of which can be occupied by one train. Each berth displays the relevant Train Reporting Number. As the train moves, the relevant Train Reporting Number is moved along its path from Berth to Berth.
Ellis' British Railway Engineering Encyclopaedia

Quote:
The train describer is required to track trains throughout the system. Trains may enter the system at the fringe boxes and at any of the various sidings. Trains are identified by a four character code (unique on a daily basis) which is extracted from timetable information or manually entered by the operator. Trains proceeding without a description are identified with a special code of four asterisks.

Associated with each running signal is a train description berth. Train descriptions are stepped from berth to berth in response to field indications received via the telemetry and in accordance with the stepping tables.

Signal berth contents, i.e., train descriptions are displayed on the mimic panel and on the VDU area maps. Other information such as signal aspects, lie of points, routes set, track occupancy are also displayed.

Selected berths are designated as reporting points (generally platform berths at specified stations). At these points the Train Describer informs the Automatic Train Reporting System of train arrival and departure.
Source

There seems to be minor variation in usage, as berths are sometimes referred to as "TD berths", where TD stands for Train Describer. But used alone, "TD" appears to stand for "Train Description", not "Train Describer". If this isn't the case, I'm happy to replace TD on every page of the tutorial with the correct term or acronym.

Berths might be part of a Train Describer system, but are not Train Describers themselves. Train Describers do not move along. Anyone else in favour of changing at least the title of this page? :whistle:
Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 05:51 by maxand
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 05:51 #28521
UKTrainMan
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1803 posts 		" said:
Well, something needs to be changed.

Sorry, but nothing on that page needs to be changed.

The text begins:

" said:
Quote:
The train describer is the signaller's means of identifying trains.

Sure, but anyone reading this (me) would assume the writer meant the description, not the describer.

But then goes straight on to read

Quote:
On the screen are a number of normally hidden 'berths' which, when occupied, display the train description (aka headcode) currently occupying that berth. Berths are not physical objects or locations but are generally associated with signals. Platforms sometimes have more than one berth if more than one train can use the platform at a time, or if dividing/joining activities take place there.
" said:
I know I'm sounding pedantic, but if we don't correct this it will continue to cause confusion.

'fraid to say that in my 2+ years of being a member on this forum, and pretty much reading every thread and post within them, I cannot recall anyone ever being confused between Train Description and Train Describer.

" said:
The internal title of this page is train_describer, so would it solve the problem if I changed the actual title from "Train Describers" to "Train Describer" and expanded the definition to make it clear to one and all that there is one Train Describer controlling multiple berths containing Train Descriptions?

There is no problem to solve. There are many many many many real life UK signallers/signalmen on here and others who just know a hell of a lot about signalling - if the page needed changing as you are proposing then I am pretty certain it would have been already.
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 05:53 by UKTrainMan
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 08:40 #28524
GeoffM
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6376 posts 		TD means both Train Description and Train Describer:

  • "The TD link has gone down" - the communications link between this train describer and an adjacent one has failed.

  • "That train has lost its TD" - the train description for that train has disappeared.
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 09:27 #28526
birchy74
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151 posts 		Why is it when MAXAND does not understand anything on here no matter what it is he asks them to be changed just for him, There is plenty of other people on here that dont understand things but they get on with it and try but all he wants is things to change just for him. I am not at all surprised his karma score is so bad.
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 10:34 #28533
GeoffM
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6376 posts 		Please keep things civil (post deleted).
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 11:11 #28537
jc92
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3690 posts
Online 		i have to agree with meld and UKTM. i never had trouble seperating the two things, even as a newbie.

i cant claim to speak for the majority (who may indeed wish to post to the contrary) but this seems like one person wants to fix something that isnt broken becuase it doesnt sit within his own set of views.

i think the reason most people dont suggest nearly as many changes as you is becuase they play the sim without giving much thought to formatting, user freindly issues etc, which in my opinion is the preferable way to go about it
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 11:49 #28539
Firefly
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521 posts 		Quote:
TD means both Train Description and Train Describer:

"That train has lost its TD" - the train description for that train has disappeared.
Although everyone would know what you mean, and some would use those words, I personally wouldn't use the word TD to refer to a description.

Generally I would use the word TD to refer to the train describer (The actual system) and I'd use the word description to refer to the individual train descriptions (head codes).

Things you may hear said in a modern signal box:-

That train on the up has no description.
1W49 has lost it's description
The TD has failed - (As in the entire system)
The TD isn't stepping on 451 signal (Once again it's a system fault)

Things you may hear in older signal boxes using magazine train describers.

Did you send the description for the last up train.
What's that train on the down? It was never described to me.
I've not had any descriptions for the last few trains, is the TD working?

Just my 2p worth

FF
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 12:57 #28543
maxand
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1637 posts 		Most terminology used here is pretty standard and in widespread use. "TD" and "Train Describer" seems to be one of those overlap areas which should be clarified for those outside the profession.

Quote:
this seems like one person wants to fix something that isnt broken becuase it doesnt sit within his own set of views.
My views are not mine at all, just my conclusions from what I read. Writing this tutorial has made me anxious to establish correct terminology right from the start. Having the same acronym (TD) applied to two different objects just makes it worse. I like my own writing to be as crystal clear as possible while avoiding verbosity.

Anyway, thanks Firefly and Geoff M for your feedback, which I think resolves the issue, not just for me but for anyone else who might have felt just a little confused by it all.

It's usage that determines which words survive and which don't. Isn't it remarkable how many synonyms there are for Train Description? We have Train ID, Train Reporting Number, Train Description Number (TDN) and even headcode. They all appear in official books but very few are used in real life. I sense this may be because people may be uncomfortable for the terms Train Describer and Train Description and human nature tries to find simple, unambiguous substitutes. This could be why headcode is so popular even though it's passed its use-by date, since it's unambiguous in its current usage. The ones that aren't quite right for today' gradually get dropped, and we are left with description, short for Train Description. Fine, no problem with that. I will use that in preference to TD in my tutorial. Words are always easier to understand than acronyms, anyway.

As for the Wiki page I still believe it needs a little tweaking to explain what a describer is and distinguish it from a description.
Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 12:59 by maxand
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 13:46 #28553
GeoffM
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6376 posts 		" said:
We have Train ID, Train Reporting Number, Train Description Number (TDN) and even headcode.
And train running number, and digits, both of which I've either read in official documentation this morning (CSR to be exact) or heard from signallers.
SimSig Boss
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 15:06 #28563
kbarber
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1743 posts 		" said:
human nature tries to find simple, unambiguous substitutes.
<snip>

As for the Wiki page I still believe it needs a little tweaking to explain what a describer is and distinguish it from a description.

There's an equal and opposite force of human nature that uses words in ways that are understood locally without any particular rigour in definition. The railway is no more immune to it than anywhere else.

If you want to get really confused, try bellringing, where "peal" has at least three meanings, one of which is unrelated to the other two - and one of them has acquired a technical definition that takes up many pages of the "Decisions" of the Central Council (and not infrequently spawns a whole afternoon of debate at their meetings - which happen just once a year)! Even that definition sometimes appears in yet another colloquial use - I've known "long peal" referred to when what was meant was a "long length".
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 01/02/2012 at 15:58 #28568
GB
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64 posts 		With respect maxand, perhaps you shouldn't be writing a tutorial untill you have a bit more experience with SimSig and UK signalling?

First learn before being learn-ed.

As for the page in hand, I cant see a problem with it.
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 02/02/2012 at 11:01 #28644
kbarber
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1743 posts 		" said:

If you want to get really confused, try bellringing, where "peal" has at least three meanings, one of which is unrelated to the other two -

I lied... I've just realised there was a fourth meaning, albeit one that's fallen into disuse since about the first world war.

Anyone still want to claim the desire for rigour is absolute & universal?
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Re: Changing "Train Describers" to "Train Descriptions 02/02/2012 at 11:10 #28646
maxand
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1637 posts 		Where the belles peel?
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