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| Telephone call from driver to include location? 06/07/2013 at 11:47 #46609 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
Just wondering how reasonable it would be to suggest that a phone call from the driver of a train waiting at a red display not only the signal number from where s/he's calling, but also the last known location, just as in the Train list? I don't know what happens in real life, but can imagine that if all was communicated was the signal number, the signaller might need to refer to a signal map diagram, just as we do. On the other hand, if (as I suspect) the signal numbers are actually visible on the IECC screen next to the signal, this places SimSig players at an unfair disadvantage over their real life counterparts. Therefore, to maintain a level playing field, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to suggest that "last location" be included, to save the extra step of consulting the Train List. I'm willing to bet that real drivers often do describe their whereabouts with more than just a signal number. Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 11:49 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 06/07/2013 at 12:28 #46610 | |
moonraker
370 posts |
Again speaking from experience as an ex driver, if you called in from a red signal to the controlling PSB/Box, once they identified your train running number they usually knew where you were and sometimes expecting a call during a failure of some sort. Of course it will depend how busy an area is. Also bear in mind that S & T staff will sometimes be in attendance and may speak to the signaller first. Especially during Temporary Block Working conditions where several signals may be booked out of use due to failure or other circumstances.
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| Telephone call from driver to include location? 06/07/2013 at 12:42 #46612 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
What about from a signaller's point of view? Or to put it another way, when there are, say, 10 or more trains in the area, how many SimSig players DON'T need to refer to the train list when a driver reports in? The Train List is, after all, a cheat sheet, so doesn't exist in the real world.
Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 12:44 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 06/07/2013 at 12:53 #46615 | |
Steamer
3986 posts 
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" said:What about from a signaller's point of view? Or to put it another way, when there are, say, 10 or more trains in the area, how many SimSig players DON'T need to refer to the train list when a driver reports in (remembering the Train List is, after all, a cheat sheet)?Personally I scan the area for the train describer first, which works most of the time, the exception being trains waiting in sidings which don't have berths when I've forgotten to place a sticky note. I'm neither for nor against this idea, however if implemented I think it would be better to assign signals to a set of areas (Westbury west end, near Castle Cary, near/at Woodborough etc.), because the 'last location' can be many miles away from where the train is now, and in the case of junctions there are several places the train could be. Also, it would be more realistic/helpful: a driver of Down train from Newbury is more likely to say "stopped at signal R880 near Woodborough" than "stopped at Signal R880, my last location was Bedwyn" (or Pewsey, if the train stopped there, since it isn't a compulsory timing point) "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 12:53 by Steamer Log in to reply |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 06/07/2013 at 13:47 #46623 | |
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TimTamToe
664 posts |
" said:" said:Like Steamer, if when you're setting routes you work methodically scanning across left to right etc you should notice what trains you're setting for and have a very good idea where about the train that is calling in is; regardless of whether you know the signal numbers or not. It is just about knowing the areas and the routes trains take. Then the more you sim the more times you know exactly where each signal isWhat about from a signaller's point of view? Or to put it another way, when there are, say, 10 or more trains in the area, how many SimSig players DON'T need to refer to the train list when a driver reports in (remembering the Train List is, after all, a cheat sheet)?Personally I scan the area for the train describer first, which works most of the time, the exception being trains waiting in sidings which don't have berths when I've forgotten to place a sticky note. Log in to reply |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 06/07/2013 at 14:02 #46624 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
I'm lucky if I can remember the physical locations of more than a handful of signals per sim, given their signal number. Maybe it's because I can see no reason to memorize them systematically when I have the Train List to give me the last position, a signal map to peruse - while I pause the sim - or a right-click to see if my guess was correct. But hey, all three are dismally inadequate compared with displaying a "near" location reference (I like that suggestion). It's like trying to navigate the globe with only a sextant but no chronometer. Even displaying signal numbers next to signals on the screen, were it possible to do this discreetly, isn't really much help as one really needs to know where to begin looking, if it's a big sim. Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 14:07 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 06/07/2013 at 14:04 #46625 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts
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I'm with the others on this one. In reality, drivers tend to give only the number of the signal at which they're standing (unless they're mid-section!). I can see where Max is coming from though, given that Simsiggers inevitably have less experience of the patch than their real-life counterparts, and are operating a larger area with more trains. I agree that it'd be more helpful, though, to refer to a signal's location rather than the train's last location.
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| Telephone call from driver to include location? 06/07/2013 at 14:14 #46627 | |
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Colourlight
117 posts |
A driver tells the Signaller which signal he is standing at by using the phonetic alphabet. This information is obtained from a plate on the signal e.g. Mike Echo 48 is March East, 48 signal. The driver identidies the train by giving the four character headcode e.g. 1L07, again using the phoneic alphabet This is all the information the signaller needs to identify both the train and it,s location. Although Maxand may be incorrect in thinking that drivers give other information regarding their location, he is correct in that they do supply additional information as a matter of routine. Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 14:20 by Colourlight Log in to reply |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 06/07/2013 at 14:18 #46628 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
It seems to be human nature that we only learn what we need to learn. Quote: Simsiggers inevitably have less experience of the patch than their real-life counterparts, and are operating a larger area with more trainsToo true; simulations can be harder than life in that there are fewer subtle cues to give one a feel of what is really happening, same as with flight simulators. The basic principle behind SimSig is great; it's just that we need all the cues we can get. I can't see why this added location information couldn't be made optional for when a player feels experienced enough to be able to do without it, like training wheels. (added) Extrapolating from Colourlight's post, the next core version of SimSig should include text-to-voice software so that out of the computer speaker comes the dulcet tones of Driver Dan, intoning flatly "This is One Lima Zero Seven. I've been waiting two minutes at Mike Echo Four Eight for you to get off your Bravo Uniform Mike and set a route for me." Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 14:27 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 06/07/2013 at 16:10 #46632 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Maxand, to give you an example of a real communication between a signaller and a driver, I refer you to this YouTube video as previously linked to and discussed on this thread. Ignoring the rest of the actual communication (:laugh:), the start is a prime example of how I expect many similar communications between a signaller and a driver tend to occur when the latter is calling in from a Signal Post Telephone (or via any other method (e.g.: Cab Secure Radio; National Rail Network Radio). I half suspect that signallers in real life learn the areas as they go along, and as such learn the location of the signals. Often, signal numbers also follow a certain pattern, too. As an example, all of the platform starters at King's Cross station on the King's Cross simulation are numbered between 265 and 287. 289, 291, 293, and 295 are then the next 'row of' signals along. Then it's 297, 299, 301, 303; then 307 (Down Slow) and 309 (Down Fast); then 311 (DS) and 313 (DF); and so on and so forth. These signals are for trains heading on the down direction, and have odd numbers to them - signals relevant to trains heading in the up direction have even numbers (e.g.: 290; 292; 294; and 296, all of which are in the Belle Isle area). Because to this, you should be able to generally get an idea of the area the train is in. With the size of panels/workstations as they are, or the size of some of the smaller simulations, it shouldn't really be too hard to simply look around that area for the headcode of the train. Sometimes, when I'm playing a simulation where I expect or know I will receive a lot of calls from, I'll add a sticky note by the signal with that signal's number and will then colour the sticky note black and colour the font one of the two grey colours. As a recent example, I did this with many of the signals on the Up lines in the throat area of London Liverpool Street station as I found I needed to hold a number of trains immediately outside the station to allow a departing train out first, and as a result some of them did call in. In cases where I've had a failure, I'll normally immediately make a mental note of the signal that I expect the driver of the next train to call-in from, and will look out for that call when it is received. Hopefully I'll also see the next train approaching, and make a mental note of it's headcode too. The above are all things I've learnt or picked-up 'from the ground up' when I first starting out in SimSig. I now consider myself to be quite proficient at signalling) - but I'm certainly not complacent and only really consider myself to be around the intermediate level, even though I'm approaching my 4th year as a 'SimSigger'! Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 22:54 by UKTrainMan Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Signalhunter, maxand |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 06/07/2013 at 16:58 #46634 | |
GeoffM
6377 posts |
Would a "find signal" / "locate signal" option solve this and other issues relating to signal IDs? For example, enter an ID (or click one if presented in a message) and the view will scroll to the area with the signal, the cursor will jump on top of the signal, and the signal will be highlighted somehow?
SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: GoochyB, Signalhunter, John, ralphjwchadkirk |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 06/07/2013 at 18:46 #46642 | |
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David Russon
50 posts |
Geoff , I think a hot link , clicking on the Signal ID in a message pop-up to enable a jump to an actual location , would be an excellent addition to any sim if it could be incorporated into the core code. DavidR Log in to reply |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 06/07/2013 at 21:28 #46650 | |
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Colourlight
117 posts |
UKTtrainman is spot on when he said Signal numbers follow a pattern. Even numbers in the Up direction and odd numbers in the down direction. That way when a signal number is quoted in a telephone communication the recipient knows which line it is on. This is important, not just for signallers and drivers but Pway, S & T, Other Frontline staff and Planners also need to know. It also makes identifying an individual signal easier. There is also a safety factor as well.
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| Telephone call from driver to include location? 06/07/2013 at 21:34 #46651 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:UKTtrainman is spot on when he said Signal numbers follow a pattern. Even numbers in the Up direction and odd numbers in the down direction. That way when a signal number is quoted in a telephone communication the recipient knows which line it is on. This is important, not just for signallers and drivers but Pway, S & T, Other Frontline staff and Planners also need to know. It also makes identifying an individual signal easier. There is also a safety factor as well.Generally speaking there is a pattern, but not always evens on the up, and odds on the down. Just to add as well that some sims such as North Wales Coast, or Llangollen have a pattern where the signals are all prefixed with letters that relate to the panel. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 21:37 by headshot119 Log in to reply |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 07/07/2013 at 01:13 #46674 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks UKTrainMan. Some good ideas there. I already knew about "odds and evens" patterns of signal numbers but your suggestion of creating sticky notes for key signals is excellent. Combine the two and put a sticky note with the signal number at the beginning and end of each series, then one can guesstimate the number of any signal in between and right-click it to confirm it (if that option is selected). Additionally, create special stickies with, say, red font to mark trouble spots where trains are likely to be delayed (the driver phones in). By the time I am near the end of playing a 24-hour sim I will have refined the number and position of sticky notes to a necessary handful for the next time I play it. I use a screen capture program (Jing) to take pics of these notes, then start a New game, pause it immediately, re-create the sticky notes (blank where needed, and SimSig allows you to create notes even when paused), then immediately save the game as a "template" .ssg file with all sticky notes. This can include sticky notes with signal numbers as you suggest - a great idea. You only need to do this once for each playing level per sim, as there are some options that must be set before starting a new game that cannot be altered once you begin (pity). A slight problem with using a black background for sticky notes - I find it so easy to drag the note accidentally if it is near a line or signal, less so if it is out of the way near a corner. However, one can learn to be more careful, I guess, or use a dark grey background with a lighter font. This leads me to list my suggestions for sticky notes, some of which I have posted elsewhere: 1) Add the option to Lock the sticky note into place so it cannot be accidentally dragged. unlock it to move it to a new position (default is draggable). 2) Add another option to Lock the sticky note's position relative to the screen so that it does not move as the screen is scrolled. It may be difficult to implement either of these two suggestions if the sticky note software is proprietary third party code which has been tacked onto SimSig core code, but no harm in asking. David Russon's suggestion about a hot link from the signal ID to the panel location is an excellent one, though I don't know how prototypical this is. A while ago I suggested that clicking on a train in the Train List window should move panel focus to that berth (an alternative hotlink solution to yours), and conversely, the position of the highlight bar on the Train List window should always match that of the train whose TT is displayed on the Show Timetable window (and vice versa). Neither suggestion was well received, so don't expect any strides forward in that department to be made soon. Maybe they're in the too hard basket. Last edited: 07/07/2013 at 03:25 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 07/07/2013 at 07:19 #46681 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
Would it not just be easier to have the option to display signal numbers like in real life? Though at this time on a Sunday morning I can't remember if that is available on overview screens or just the detail views which we don't have.
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| Telephone call from driver to include location? 07/07/2013 at 08:31 #46684 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
The great thing about signal numbering patterns is there are so many to choose from! A sim like North Wales has lots of prefixes because it simulates lots of small individual boxes. Within mechanical boxes like those there were a few different numbering patterns depending on railway and contractor; the most common was to have signal levers grouped by direction at each end of the frame, so a down train might pass signals 1-3 and an up train signals 25-23. On the Scottish Region the standard design for large boxes was to have a separate prefix for each relay room. You can see this on the Edinburgh sim where Edinburgh box controls lots of prefixes such as EH, ED, EW and E, among others: the relay rooms at Haymarket, Dalmeny, Winchburgh Jn and the one in the box itself. On the Western Region, controlled signals were numbered in the standard pattern but automatic signals were numbered by line and location (mileage). So for example between Bath and Bristol you might have a controlledssignal numbered B5, and the next will be an auto signal numbered DM 110 - I made those numbers up but you see what I mean. Log in to reply |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 07/07/2013 at 14:17 #46706 | |
pedroathome
916 posts
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I know it may not be possible on all sims, but the way I like best with regards to signal numbers is when they can be displayed on the panel, such as available on the (I think) Euston sim. James Log in to reply |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 07/07/2013 at 17:10 #46719 | |
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GeoffM
6377 posts |
" said:Would it not just be easier to have the option to display signal numbers like in real life? Though at this time on a Sunday morning I can't remember if that is available on overview screens or just the detail views which we don't have.SimSig only simulates the overviews and no, signal numbers are not displayed on overviews. A detail view is roughly 2-3x larger than an overview so has a lot more room to display identities - but even some of those screens are horrible to look at, the way some of the identities have had to be wedged in. " said: The great thing about signal numbering patterns is there are so many to choose from!Yep. Some areas don't have up/down even/odd numbering - I think the Midlands was and still has sequential numbers at adjacent signals. The "new" standard is four digits everywhere so that's more room required - but at least does follow a pattern such as the slow line signal would have an ID of 2002 higher than than the fast line signal, then all increment in the down direction. The idea behind the 2002 and not 2000 is so that adjacent signals on main running lines have at least two digits different from each other. " said: I know it may not be possible on all sims, but the way I like best with regards to signal numbers is when they can be displayed on the panel, such as available on the (I think) Euston sim.I think even that sim has the odd signal missing a label due to reasons of space. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 08/07/2013 at 11:25 #46774 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
GeoffM wrote Quote: Would a "find signal" / "locate signal" option solve this and other issues relating to signal IDs? For example, enter an ID (or click one if presented in a message) and the view will scroll to the area with the signal, the cursor will jump on top of the signal, and the signal will be highlighted somehow?Sorry Geoff for not responding to this earlier - I somehow overlooked your post. A single click to jump from a signal ID (in the Telephone Calls window) or a headcode (in the Train List window) to that signal or berth would immediately make SimSig much more user-friendly, particularly to newer players. Conversely, there should also be the option to jump from a berth (by clicking) to that train's entry in the Train List, highlighting it. Since left-clicking a berth opens the Show Timetable window, a different hotkey such as Shift-clicking could be used. I don't think the option to display all signal numbers in the View window would be popular as an F3 option, since the only font apparently available here is far too large for this purpose and makes the screen look cluttered. Take for example Euston 1.0 with all signals displayed. On the other hand, if this can be toggled on/off by pressing a hotkey (e.g., Alt+N) while in View window without having to go through F3 options, it might be useful to identify all signals within a given area, though even this doesn't help if the user has no idea where to begin looking. Maybe a better solution would be to set up a hotlink from Telephone Calls (as David Russon suggested) or Train List to View, then when the hotkey is pressed, the focus moves to that signal AND the signal number is displayed next to it, leaving no doubt as to which signal is being referred to. This should be simple to do: the signal numbers are already there on the panel (View window), only in a black font, making them invisible. When the hotlink is made, the target signal changes character colour to cyan (as in Euston), or yellow, or white, or whatever colour is used in the IECC Detail view, for authenticity (I like cyan). No other signal number is displayed, which avoids cluttering and makes the chosen signal stand out. Additionally to being able to toggle all signal numbers on/off, there could be a Signal Number Options tab, listing all the signals in the sim, with a checkbox alongside each, so that the user can nominate whether to display the signal numbers of certain troublesome locations permanently. This is similar to UKTrainMan's suggestion about using sticky notes, which are fine as temporary memos but were never really intended to substitute for signal number display. Last edited: 08/07/2013 at 11:28 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Telephone call from driver to include location? 08/07/2013 at 11:58 #46781 | |
onlydjw
456 posts |
If I'm right, some signal boxes/centres/<insert whatever other name they give a building in which trains are signalled>, the phone console for that box/panel has a button which flashes when the phone rings which gives the signal post number (or other identification of not a SPT) of where the call is being received from. I like the idea that when the phone rings, some kind of reminder appears at the signal. I'd suggest something along the line of: Phone rings. When you open the phone window, it says (example) Driver at Signal xxx (to replicate the phone console). Also, the signal reminder starts flashing (although you might not see it at that point). When you answer that call, the main screen jumps to the area where that call is coming from, and (example) the reminder on the signal is flashing. When you answer the call, the flashing reminder becomes static, and the reminder disappears when you finish the call. This way, if you get multiple calls, the screen isn't jumping around all over the place trying to keep up (you can only answer one phone call at once), and therefore the user/player/signaller controls the priority of the phone calls, rather than the sim prioritising the first or most recent call. Also, phone calls for trains entering would also jump to that entry point, although I'm not sure what you would highlight to show which entry point the phone call referred to, unless there was a stop board for example. Thoughts? God bless, Daniel Wilson Log in to reply |