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| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 07:05 #59792 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
This thread set me wondering... SimSig's Telephone Calls work by the signal post telephone method, i.e., a driver has to stop at a signal before he can phone in. We do seem to have a rudimentary CSR embedded within the Train List, but I find it fiddly to R-click the right train when using a list with smaller fonts which is required when there are a lot of trains in the area. From what I gather, CSR (Cab Secure Radio) is only available in parts of the UK at present, but "within the next few years CSR will be replaced by the GSM-R digital system, as it forms the initial phase of rollout of ERTMS throughout the UK". (Wikipedia) SimSig is to some extent unrealistic in that its Train List CSR is available even when the area controlled by the sim does not yet have it. I guess this is why it's been relegated to the Train List, along with more desperate measures such as Remove Train. Direct action is called for when the driver has no reason to phone in. (I still can't fathom why this de facto CSR can order a driver to reverse yet not to stop.) On the other hand, most sims are TORR-enabled or offer this option even when it is not in real life. This is being proactive. Correspondingly, I think SimSig should also become more proactive by offering full CSR (optionally where CSR currently unavailable) in all sims, separating CSR from the other information shown in the Train List (at least, till Moving Block arrives) and creating a special popup window for it, maybe via its Train Describer context menu. Reserve the Train List for unrealistic info and extreme measures. The Wikipedia article quoted above claims that with CSR: Quote:
Last edited: 30/04/2014 at 07:15 by maxand Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 08:53 #59796 | |
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JamesN
1611 posts |
No, I wouldn't think of F2 functions as a rudimentary CSR, they're tools to assist running a simulation - for use sparingly, as normal operation shouldn't require anyone to right click the train list at all. There is a stop function included: "pause train" - I believe it was added to F2 at your request! Additionally this has always been available by clicking on the trains tab and selecting the relevant train in the Incident Control Panel (F11) CSR's primary purpose is allowing the driver of a driver-only operated passenger train to contact the signaller without leaving his/her driving cab - this ability was one of the pre-requisites of DOO being implemented. With the exception of the signaller initiating calls to the driver, which the driver won't (shouldn't) answer unless the train is at a stand, there is no practical difference between using CSR and using the SPT. Why have the complexity of 2 signaller <> train communication systems, when the one already implemented is much more widely used on the railway, and serves as the backup to CSR where it is fitted. Surely, as someone who appears to struggle with SimSig as it is, another level of complexity is the last thing you want? Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 10:49 #59801 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
There's not really any reason to initiate a phone call to a driver in Simsig, so the current telephone interface does everything you really need it to. As James says, you shouldn't need to touch the 'F2' train list in normal operation - I consider its use to authorise a driver to pass a signal at danger (rather than waiting for him to phone in and do it properly) to be one of the worst forms of cheating  . I've never worked with CSR, but certainly the only feature of GSM-R that's not simulated in Simsig but would be useful is the ability to send a "contact signaller" text message (already discussed at length elsewhere, along with 'zero plates'). Incidentally, that's the only text message that can be sent (on GSM-R, at least) to a driver, other than "wait" in response to "waiting at signal".
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| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 11:31 #59804 | |
Peter Bennet
5419 posts |
" said:With the exception of the signaller initiating calls to the driver, which the driver won't (shouldn't) answer unless the train is at a stand..... .We often have driver announcements where the driver relays information from the box without having stopped. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 12:25 #59805 | |
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Jay_G
54 posts |
I think they can answer the phone/make a call, 'aslong as it can be done safely and cause no distraction' (where I have read that I do not know!)
Last edited: 30/04/2014 at 12:25 by Jay_G Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 12:42 #59808 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
JamesN wrote: Quote: No, I wouldn't think of F2 functions as a rudimentary CSR, they're tools to assist running a simulation - for use sparingly, as normal operation shouldn't require anyone to right click the train list at all. There is a stop function included: "pause train" - I believe it was added to F2 at your request! Additionally this has always been available by clicking on the trains tab and selecting the relevant train in the Incident Control Panel (F11)On returning to the Exeter sim v4 to check this, I found that there is indeed a Pause checkbox on the Incident Control Panel as you describe. Had no idea this even existed, it's so well hidden. It works perfectly - I was able to bring a Class 1 express from 60 mph to a full stop instantaneously! However, we live in a less than perfect world where other factors such as momentum and braking forces need to be considered. Pause isn't quite what I had in mind and certainly not what most people would understand by Stop.  If it was "added to F2 at my request" this must have been to some other sim - I can't find it under the Signalling options on the F2 menu. Late Turn wrote: Quote: There's not really any reason to initiate a phone call to a driver in SimsigIsn't that why CSR and its successors was introduced, so as to make it possible for a signaller to issue instructions, preferably while the train is stationary? This thread is about what CSR can do above and beyond phone calls. You're implying that signallers shouldn't even be able to initiate communication with a driver in an emergency, something which I understand is permitted even now in CSR, although I suppose there could also be some emergency STOP warning like a flashing light in his cabin. I notice that in SimSig the delay between a driver stopping and phoning in is set at 2 minutes. This might be acceptable if he's waiting at a red to give it time to change, but what a great waste of precious time otherwise. CSR would permit him to call in instantly he stops, if needed. On one hand there is your opinion that Quote: you shouldn't need to touch the 'F2' train list in normal operation - I consider its use to authorise a driver to pass a signal at danger (rather than waiting for him to phone in and do it properly) to be one of the worst forms of cheatingOn the other hand, if you decide not to use the F2 train list at all, you are left with no way of initiating communication with a driver in a number of situations which have been mentioned above. Okay, if you don't fancy the idea of the signaller initiating communication via phone or CSR then we should at least have a separate STOP command linked to the TD berth or somewhere else handy and separate from the Train List. Then, once the train has stopped, the driver could phone in if he is near enough to a signal or call on CSR if we pretend he has it. A single Stop command would do away with the need for any other F2 Signalling options, which could now all be handled by phone/CSR options. (Yes, why not combine them into a single window named Calls?) Then responses such as "Pass next signal at danger" could be one of the optional responses. Of course, there are really two kinds of stopping, normal and emergency. I don't know whether a driver seeing a STOP sign lighting up on his panel would treat it as an emergency, but I suspect so, in which case there should be an alternative message ordering him to make a graduated stop. Last edited: 30/04/2014 at 12:50 by maxand Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 12:49 #59809 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
" said:I think they can answer the phone/make a call, 'aslong as it can be done safely and cause no distraction' (where I have read that I do not know!)The current rulebook G1 5.2 You must not use communication equipment if it may cause a distraction or effect safety. With GSM-R we are encourage to use the call signaller text message, but all that does is move the responsibility to the driver to initiate the call on the move or bring their train to a stand. But ever since CSR came into use both signallers and drives from all TOCs have used it with the trains on the move. With a very small amount of drivers who will stop 1st before taking the call and I've never yet had a call from a train driver that has stopped 1st to call into the ASC even when reporting a safety of the line incident when they could of used their train to protect the line! But all in all our little part of the railway wouldn't work if all trains had to stop before using any of the two radio systems. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 12:49 #59810 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
What instructions would you want to issue to a driver when he isn't at a signal in Simsig? Instructions regarding timetables are already automagically transmitted to him, and just about every other message you can send him is related to signals. Why would you ever need to stop him anywhere but a signal? The only case I can imagine for the latter is if you're doing untimetabled shunts and there's no signal to stop him (or no ability to set that signal to danger), but the "reverse" option covers that already, and in all honesty I don't think you're at the level of skill where you should be making up shunts. Please, Maxand, learn to signal effectively in Simsig and then think about what features can constructively be added. Adding even more tools for you to mess up timetables and lose trains isn't a good idea. Last edited: 30/04/2014 at 12:53 by Danny252 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: peterb |
| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 13:05 #59813 | |
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peterb
452 posts |
" said:I notice that in SimSig the delay between a driver stopping and phoning in is set at 2 minutes. This might be acceptable if he's waiting at a red to give it time to change, but what a great waste of precious time otherwise.Two minutes is standard practice in the real world, or where the signal specifies the driver waits for another period of time or calls immediately. " said: What instructions would you want to issue to a driver when he isn't at a signal in Simsig? Instructions regarding timetables are already automagically transmitted to him, and just about every other message you can send him is related to signals. Why would you ever need to stop him anywhere but a signal? The only case I can imagine for the latter is if you're doing untimetabled shunts and there's no signal to stop him (or no ability to set that signal to danger), but the "reverse" option covers that already, and in all honesty I don't think you're at the level of skill where you should be making up shunts.+1 I can't think of any reason in Simsig why I would want to contact a driver while he is on the move. If you can, it would be nice to hear it. Your list of pros for CSR in your OP are either already replicated through the use of phone calls, or are not appropriate/applicable to Simsig. Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 13:32 #59819 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
CSR is a bit old hat. It would be GSM-R
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| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 13:48 #59821 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
I agree there are risks in signaller contacting driver or even vice versa unless stopped at a signal, despite Hooverman's reassurances in post #7. So I ask again, what's wrong with incorporating a few more signalling options found in the Train list as standard options in Telephone Calls for drivers waiting at reds? Such as: Shunt forward Reverse direction Shunt forward and reverse direction past signal in addition to the current Pass signal at danger, Examine the line, Examine the line and pass signal at danger. Maybe too a signaller could send a text message to a driver to stop then call signaller. Last edited: 30/04/2014 at 13:56 by maxand Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 14:07 #59823 | |
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Peter Bennet
5419 posts |
That's not what I understood you originally asked for which was for calls to be made while the train is on the move. This is just for additional options in the phone reply menu - which is a different question and possibly more realistic to have implimented. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 14:15 #59827 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Those "Shunt Forward" options are not valid for trains sat at a signal at danger. You would have to ask them to pass a signal at danger to do so, for which there is already an option. Additionally, reversing a train out of course is not a "normal" action, and so I don't believe it should be included as a "default" one - in fact, in many cases it would be incredibly dangerous, as there would be nothing to stop said train running back wrong-line into another train. If you need to be reversing trains, you must be running with failures on (a TT should never require you to use such an option), and for that you should be confident in using the F2 window. Last edited: 30/04/2014 at 14:16 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 14:45 #59828 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
The only option I would like to see would be the ability to call a train at a station to be able to put the signal back after the original option to replace the signal wasn't used or to be able to call a train on the move to be able to go to a more restrictive aspect to divert around an infrastructure failure both of which are used frequently at work. Also there needs to be some logic in this that deactivates this if the wrong era is being used or the stock is not fitted with CSR/GSM-R.
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| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 15:03 #59829 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
" said:Late Turn wrote: I did say that the "contact signaller" function on GSM-R would be very useful - that'd allow you to encourage a driver to contact you immediately upon arriving at a signal at danger, from where the usual telephone options would be available. The other F2 commands - reverse train, shunt forward and so on - are probably best left where they are: although they'd be communicated by telephone in reality, there's also the need to come to a clear understanding with the driver as to how far the movement may proceed...much more difficult to achieve in Simsig within the fixed telephone dialogue options than it is in the real world! " said: Okay, if you don't fancy the idea of the signaller initiating communication via phone or CSR then we should at least have a separate STOP command linked to the TD berth or somewhere else handy and separate from the Train List. Then, once the train has stopped, the driver could phone in if he is near enough to a signal or call on CSR if we pretend he has it. Maybe, but what purpose would an 'emergency stop' command serve in Simsig? Is there any occasion when you'd want a driver to come to an immediate stand rather than just coming to a stand at the next signal and phoning from there? I can only think of the times when you're trying to manually 'control' a train making an unsignalled move during disruption, and that'd require use of the other commands in the F2 menu anyway. The "contact signaller" option would cover everything else, prompting the driver to phone in as soon as he comes to a stand at the signal (but not instructing him to stop out of course). I'd also echo Hooverman's request for the ability to arrange for a driver (or platform staff, in his absence!) phone to have a signal replaced - either because something's gone wrong, or simply because you've pulled off for the wrong train and want to confirm that there's no driver on it, or make the driver aware what you're going to do, before you replace the signal. Perhaps that would need to be a standard response on the telephone dialogue options in the case of a driver responding to that "contact signaller" message. Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 16:16 #59835 | |
Steamer
3997 posts 
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The way I operate F2 is that it performs functions that in real life would be conveyed verbally. For example, in real life you could say "Take it out to 23 signal, reverse and I'll put you in P3". Obviously, this can't be done when you're giving instructions to a computer, so 'Edit Timetable' and 'Reverse' are provided. Quote: Of course, there are really two kinds of stopping, normal and emergency. I don't know whether a driver seeing a STOP sign lighting up on his panel would treat it as an emergency, but I suspect so, in which case there should be an alternative message ordering him to make a graduated stop.There's no need in SimSig to perform an emergency stop. This would only happen in the event of a SPAD, or an obstruction on the line, neither of which are simulated. As Late Turn says, you'd only want to use it on an ad-hoc shunt movement, which you'd be doing via F2 anyway. Quote: I notice that in SimSig the delay between a driver stopping and phoning in is set at 2 minutes. This might be acceptable if he's waiting at a red to give it time to change, but what a great waste of precious time otherwise. CSR would permit him to call in instantly he stops, if needed.A driver can call in almost instantly at a signal post telephone if he so wishes. The two minutes prevents the signaller being swamped with calls. There have been several requests lately for a way to make the driver phone in immediately on arrival at a red. Quote: Had no idea this even existed, it's so well hidden.Anything's well hidden if no-one bothers to look for it It's all there on the Wiki. Also, F2> Right click train> Assessor options.Quote: So I ask again, what's wrong with incorporating a few more signalling options found in the Train list as standard options in Telephone Calls for drivers waiting at reds? Such as:If you think about it, 'Shunt Forward' at a red signal would require the train to pass the red signal, which there's already an option for. Quote: Reverse directionExtremely rare, drivers would know where to reverse. See also first paragraph- the signaller and driver would come to a clear understanding of what the move entails before starting it. Quote: Shunt forward and reverse direction past signalA reversed train will automatically carry on going backwards, there's no need for an additional 'shunt forward'. In fact, that command to me reads "Go forward for an unspecified distance, reverse, then pass whatever signal you come to at danger". Doesn't sound safe. Once again, a bit more time spent signalling and you wouldn't need most of the features requested here, some of which aren't 'more realistic'. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 30/04/2014 at 23:07 #59865 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
I think basically: * Phone immediately at next signal at danger ("contact signaller" type message). * Request ACOA (not sure how it's officially phrased, but useful as has been said if you mis-click and accidentally route a train not due to depart for ages from a station, or maybe if there's been a failure since a route was set and you'd like to ask if it's possible to bring it to danger to divert them) ...would both be quite useful and would allow the F2 train list to be completely unused for anything realistic other than shunts (not that it helps with the second scenario right now). Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 03:47 #59866 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks Steamer for pointing out "Pause" is included under F2 > Assessor options. Non-intuitive, but it's there all right. Peter Bennet wrote: Quote: That's not what I understood you originally asked for which was for calls to be made while the train is on the move. This is just for additional options in the phone reply menu - which is a different question and possibly more realistic to have implemented.True. In the discussion following my original post I conceded that asking for a CSR facility to make calls on the move was not in the best interests of safety, so amended this to ask for these options to be added to the Telephone Calls menu, without opening a separate thread for this. Since your post, others have written in commenting on my three suggestions for further commands to be added to the standard options offered to drivers waiting at a red, along with useful advice as to how these events are managed in real life. Steamer wrote: Quote: For example, in real life you could say "Take it out to 23 signal, reverse and I'll put you in P3". Obviously, this can't be done when you're giving instructions to a computer, so 'Edit Timetable' and 'Reverse' are provided.A good example. I hate editing timetables, since I'm always asked at the end of the session whether I want to save the amended TT and I usually can't remember which edits I want to keep or throw away, so if I've put him in the wrong place, I usually tell the driver to abandon the TT, reverse the train to a signal, reverse again and resume its original TT. Which leads me to this troublesome term "Reverse direction". Now I realize why it's caused me so much irritation. It's because in SimSig it's possible to reverse a train's direction while it is on the move. "Reverse direction" can actually have three interpretations: 1) If moving, (stop,) reverse direction and move in the opposite direction. Not realistic but permitted in SimSig. 2) If stationary, reverse direction (driver moves to opposite end if train type permits), phone in and await next instruction. 3) If stationary, reverse direction and move forwards without phoning in until reaching a stop signal. To digress for a moment, authorising a driver to pass a signal at danger is an option in both Telephone calls and F2 Signalling options. In the former, no problem - train is already stopped at a red. In Signalling options, one gets an error message popup unless the train is standing at a (red) signal, which is as it should be. Similarly, Reverse direction should not be permitted unless the train is already standing at a red (including a LOS signal). This would eliminate the silliness of forcing a train to reverse while moving, also any need for a "Stop" directive. Also, I think "Reverse direction" should be reworded "Reverse direction and proceed" (rather than "Reverse direction and shunt/move forward"). Now with this instruction there is no longer any suggestion that the driver is being asked to pass a signal at danger, the impression I gave in my earlier post that was not my intention. Since it is clear that after reversing the next step is to proceed in the new direction, there is no need for a separate "Move forward" or "Shunt forward" command. The driver walks to the opposite end of the train, reverses and proceeds to the next stop signal. In the case of a freight train with only one front driver cabin this should still be acceptable assuming there is now a lookout at the rear end, though at shunting speed only. Danny252 wrote: Quote: Additionally, reversing a train out of course is not a "normal" action, and so I don't believe it should be included as a "default" one - in fact, in many cases it would be incredibly dangerous, as there would be nothing to stop said train running back wrong-line into another train.A good point. I assume "out of course" means "not on the timetable". Even though SimSig prevents accidents of this type taking place, it puts the onus on the signaller to ensure there is no risk before asking the driver to do this. Isn't asking a driver to PSAD also not a "normal" action? So I can't see why "Reverse direction and proceed" should not be included in the list of options; since the list can't be changed, they must all be "default" actions! Maybe "common" and "uncommon" options would describe them better. To sum up, I would like to see Ask driver to reverse direction and proceed included as a standard reply option to drivers standing at a red. This request applies only to the Telephone Calls window. Although it would be consistent to see this replicated in F2 Signalling Options this could be left as is. --- Hooverman and Muzer have made very similar requests, namely to contact driver or platform staff to replace a signal to a more restrictive aspect, a very realistic proposal. But the conditions are different from a call made by a driver standing at a red, namely (1) the signal by definition is currently not at danger but less restrictive, (2) the driver has no reason to call in (maybe waiting for half an hour till train departs), and (3) the train may actually be moving in one case of Hooverman's example. So maybe there should be a Call train option, either as a button next to Place call at the bottom of the Telephone calls window, and/or an option by r-clicking a train (context menu). Contacting the driver rather than platform staff at a station would avoid an ACOA. Whether driver should be contactable while train is in motion is a moot point, but certainly while at a station should be acceptable. Last edited: 01/05/2014 at 04:27 by maxand Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 07:20 #59870 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:Isn't asking a driver to PSAD also not a "normal" action? So I can't see why "Reverse direction and proceed" should not be included in the list of options; since the list can't be changed, they must all be "default" actions! Maybe "common" and "uncommon" options would describe them better.I'd estimate that in real world UK railways the pass signal at danger instruction is given over 100 times a day across the network. I'd say that "driver change ends and reverse your train" would be given by a signalman no more than a couple of times a month. Not sure if the real bobbies would agree. Last edited: 01/05/2014 at 07:22 by Firefly Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 07:51 #59871 | |
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JamesN
1611 posts |
Again, you're missing what the point of reverse train is. I'll try wording it differently: Reverse train allows the SimSignaller to take control of a train and manoeuvre it around in situations outside of normal working (eg Unsignalled/Untimetabled shunts, train running away against the direction of travel) - that's why it can be done at any time, and why that shouldn't change. Unrealistic, yes, but you shouldn't have to go near it. If you find yourself using it frequently enough to bother you alarm bells should be ringing. As the train may already be stopped (for example, in a platform), you can't call it stop and reverse. You can't call it reverse and proceed either, as you may want to use it to correct the direction of a joining train so that it's facing the train it wants to join. In that case, a simple reversal of direction will suffice. Combine all those uses in to one and you get reverse direction. Shunt Forward can be used if the train in question needs to move along a platform in order to make space for a second train. This may not require a reversal first, and thus needs to remain. These commands are not meant to be realistic, they're there to get you out of situations the normal operation of the simulation cannot handle. That's why they appear as options in F2, not in telephone calls. The pass signal etc option in F2 is intended for situations where the driver won't call in - for example a grey external signal (which understandably don't generate waiting at red signal calls). Some people choose to use it to pass ordinary signals, others consider that to be cheating and wait for the driver to phone in. In summary, reverse direction should not be added to telephone call as it betrays it's status as a "hand of god" feature, and changes to its existing behaviour would end its usefulness. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 08:24 #59873 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
" said:Quote:Isn't asking a driver to PSAD also not a "normal" action? So I can't see why "Reverse direction and proceed" should not be included in the list of options; since the list can't be changed, they must all be "default" actions! Maybe "common" and "uncommon" options would describe them better.I'd estimate that in real world UK railways the pass signal at danger instruction is given over 100 times a day across the network. I'd say that "driver change ends and reverse your train" would be given by a signalman no more than a couple of times a month. I don't know about the exact figures, but yes, it's certainly far more common to instruct a driver to pass a signal at danger (and even more common to tell him to wait for the signal!) than it is to start making wrong direction movements. Most significantly, though, is that passing a signal at danger is normally a fairly 'standard' instruction with a defined limit (i.e. proceed with caution, being prepared to stop short of any obstruction* and obey all further signals), whereas a wrong direction movement often won't have anything (such as a signal at danger) for Simsig to work out where the train should stop - it'll more frequently be "stop once you're clear inside xx signal" or similar, so you're back to the other 'hand of god' options that James mentions to make sure it stops in the right place. Perhaps the only useful option would be "reverse train and abandon timetable" in those cases where "abandon timetable" is given as an option (wrong route calls only?), but even that's surely limited as it relies on reverting again to the F2 options to manually control its movements and/or assign another timetable to it. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 08:53 #59879 | |
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kbarber
1764 posts |
Maybe we're looking at two separate classes of instruction here, which suggests to me they need treating differently. First, there's instructions that are needed to make the sim do things. Reversing a direction so trains will couple is a good example. This would never be needed in real life, drivers know what they need to do to couple their trains and they'll do it without the signalman needing to know anything about it once the second train has been signalled into the occupied section. But we do need the 'hand of God' up our sleeve because the sim doesn't always get it right so we need to tell them sometimes. (Cue the old banter between footplate and 'box  )Then there's instructions that might well be given in real life. Advising a driver an aspect is to be reversed is one, whether it's about getting out of a cock-up or arranging diversions when there's a failure. But I think there might be mileage in providing for unsignalled shunts as well. Again, it's most likely to happen in times of failure, if a train is trapped by the failure but there's others behind it that can continue to run. In that case you might well (IRL) tip out the trapped train and shunt it clear into any siding that's handy; if that's accessed through an unsignalled trailing connection and the sim doesn't have a 'Reverse' location in the right place, you might want a way of talking the train forward and then back. In that case you probably wouldn't want the train to go ahead far enough to be stopped at a red signal, so you'd either need to watch proceedings and tell it to stop once it clears the points or you'd need a way of instructing where it was to stop (a message along the lines of 'Shunt forward and stop clear of points xxxx'). Either of those might or might not need a signal to be passed at danger. You'd then need to give a specific instruction to start the set back move, otherwise the train might reverse and start moving before you'd set the road into the siding, with inevitable results. You might then want to draw the train out of the siding, drop it back 'wrong-road' into the platform (again unsignalled) and make up a back-working using a (hopefully convenient) crossover (signalled or otherwise). In mechanical signalling, with a signalbox on site, it would most likely be done with an instruction to the driver before the moves start then handsignals to control each phase of the move, but in a powerbox you can't do that so the phone calls would be needed. To my mind that's not 'hand of God' as it's a perfectly normal (albeit, in modern practice, unusual) procedure. So far as this last class of moves is concerned, I wonder if there's mileage in a 'start shunting' option in the phone calls menu? That would bring up a new series of call options containing the shunting commands and a 'finished shunting' option, but no others. The 'shunt clear of points xxxx' option might cause a train to move until the subroute containing those points became clear and then stop. (Would that be a difficult thing to program?) I imagine the 'set back' instruction would also need a location, either '...clear of points xxxx' or '...to signal yyy'. There would obviously need to be some reasonably sensible way of obtaining points numbers; any mileage in adding them to the signal number diagrams in the wiki? (I do realise that would be a distinctly non-trivial task.) But it would allow a degree of realism in digging ourselves out of the holes that failures drop us in to. Any thoughts? Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 09:39 #59880 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Replying to JamesN: Quote: As the train may already be stopped (for example, in a platform), you can't call it stop and reverse. The phrase I requested was "Reverse and proceed", not "stop and reverse", and will only apply if the train has already stopped. Quote: You can't call it reverse and proceed either, as you may want to use it to correct the direction of a joining train so that it's facing the train it wants to join. In that case, a simple reversal of direction will suffice. Combine all those uses in to one and you get reverse direction. If this order needs to be given to a train to help it join another train because SimSig thinks there is still a short distance between them, then simply Reversing won't close this distance, but Reverse and proceed will. Quote: Shunt Forward can be used if the train in question needs to move along a platform in order to make space for a second train. This may not require a reversal first, and thus needs to remain. I don't mind if this command remains in, provided it is not misinterpreted as PSAD. Quote: These commands are not meant to be realistic, they're there to get you out of situations the normal operation of the simulation cannot handle. That's why they appear as options in F2, not in telephone calls. As others here have described from their own experiences, these situations can and do occur in real life and can be (and are) handled through signaller-driver communication without requiring the hand of god. The trick is to find the minimum number of authentic instructions that when coupled together handle the maximum number of situations. That's one reason why I would like to see them duplicated (if not moved) to Telephone calls. Replying to Late Turn: "wrong direction movements" - a nice term for reversing, etc. Thanks. Quote: ...whereas a wrong direction movement often won't have anything (such as a signal at danger) for Simsig to work out where the train should stop As I described in my previous post, it's the signaller's responsibility to know where the train will stop before ordering "Reverse and proceed". SimSig doesn't have to work out anything. All the driver has to do after reversing is to proceed until he reaches the next stop signal. Surely that's all been automated by now. I can see no reason to combine a real-life instruction such as "Reverse train" with "Abandon timetable". HOGwash. Replying to kbarber: Thanks Keith for showing how many components there actually are to seemingly simple yet unorthodox manoeuvres, and how much further they need to be simplified to work inside SimSig. A bit like trying to walk by making each leg muscle move individually rather than coordinate them. In your second paragraph you mention unsignalled shunts. Not sure what a trailing connection is but can understand combinations of prior verbal instructions followed by hand signals. You made it very clear that unsignalled shunts (what this is really all about) cannot be implemented satisfactorily when drivers can only communicate if standing at signals! Quote: To my mind that's not 'hand of God' as it's a perfectly normal (albeit, in modern practice, unusual) procedure. I couldn't agree more. Well, this theme was about CSR, so if SimSig adopts it, that's how I imagine it would be used, and what a great leap forward in realism it would be. As for your last paragraph, I'd be interested to read what other pundits have to say about your suggestions. Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 10:07 #59882 | |
postal
5269 posts
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" said:Quote:Maybe this could have been better phrased as it reads as if the writer is far better equipped to decide on the vagaries of UK signalling and operation and what goes into their software than Geoff, Clive et al.Shunt Forward can be used if the train in question needs to move along a platform in order to make space for a second train. This may not require a reversal first, and thus needs to remain. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: lazzer |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 10:59 #59884 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Okay then, I don't mind if Shunt forward is added to the list of Telephone Call options as long as error-catching code is in place to prevent it from being used as a substitute for PSAD.
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