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somewhere fictional 16/12/2014 at 11:46 #66727 | |
Oddjob
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My suggestion for a sim is somewhere fictional, no need to visit boxes or PSB's, no conflict of interest. The developer would have a free hand as simple or as complex as they liked.
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somewhere fictional 16/12/2014 at 11:54 #66728 | |
GW43125
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I work at a miniature railway... what a good idea!
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somewhere fictional 16/12/2014 at 17:15 #66736 | |
Forest Pines
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I think this has been suggested before and most of the opinions expressed were against - although I haven't dredged the previous thread up so could be wrong. Counterintuitively, it is usually harder to produce something realistic and interesting if you have a completely free hand than if you are producing a simulation, because of the sheer amount of creative work involved. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Oddjob |
somewhere fictional 16/12/2014 at 20:54 #66744 | |
BoxBoyKit
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Perhaps someone or a group of creative people could produce the required information for the developer to work from?
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somewhere fictional 16/12/2014 at 22:31 #66746 | |
Danny252
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I think the main problem pointed out was that you need to generate a complete history of your layout, to explain the station locations, track layout, signalling/interlocking oddities, trains used, TOCs involved, through traffic, before then designing an entire interlocking from scratch to fit the layout. The conclusion probably was that it sounds almost as much work as a real sim!
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somewhere fictional 17/12/2014 at 13:49 #66758 | |
maxand
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This suggestion has been at least once previously, such as here: Lets see how this is received... Unfortunately the discussion soon got bogged down in Thomas the Tank Engine copyright issues, but some good points were made along the way. The main advantage of such a sim is that one can integrate it into a user-friendly area, achieving a smooth, pleasant throughput if all one desires is a relaxing game at the end of a long day. As Stephen Fulcher posted in another thread, Quote: sims dont all have to be all about millions of junctions and shunts. id happily play a small sim with a few moves like youve just suggested as i prefer quiet sims for a nice laid back game. its a shame there arent more 1 player simsSuch a fictitious area could be small or large, in the latter case consisting of smaller modules which could theoretically be joined in different configurations (and given different station names if necessary). Danny252 commented in post #5: Quote: I think the main problem pointed out was that you need to generate a complete history of your layout, to explain the station locations, track layout, signalling/interlocking oddities, trains used, TOCs involved, through traffic, before then designing an entire interlocking from scratch to fit the layout. The conclusion probably was that it sounds almost as much work as a real sim!This is absolutely true, as anyone attempting to build a model railway layout without studying the history of the area quickly learns. Joe Fugate, assistant editor of Model Railroad Hobbyist Magazine (free online), wrote in the September 2014 issue: Quote: When you look at a track plan, can you readily identify every track’s purpose? Real railroads don’t select track arrangements because they “look cool,” they put tracks where they do because every track has a purpose. I remember the very first track plan I ever drew. First, I just knew the plan had to fit onto a ping-pong sized table, so obviously it needed to be a loop of track. Next, I thought a crossing would be cool, so I tried to work that in. Then I had an exciting prototype photo of a double-track line with a crossover, so I added a second track and a crossover.But there's nothing, either, to prevent a designer from lifting tried and tested sections that play well from existing sims, rename or edit them slightly and insert them, TC lengths and all, into the fictitious sim. The same applies to timetables. After all, the number of varieties of stations and siding in real life is finite and dictated by necessity. Unfortunately, there is an ingrained expectation that a new sim will attempt to reproduce an existing area within the UK, inheriting all its historical detritus such as manually controlled crossings and ill-placed signals that can prove so confusing and irritable to anyone expecting a smooth run. Furthermore, the obsession with realism requires a stupendous amount of research before a design can be approved. A simulator doesn't have to be based on reality to simulate good signalling practices. I think it's time to permit fictitious sims so that budding developers can spread their wings without having to climb up giants in order to stand on their shoulders, as Isaac Newton might have said had he been inclined to mix metaphors. Last edited: 17/12/2014 at 13:50 by maxand Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Oddjob |
somewhere fictional 17/12/2014 at 14:37 #66762 | |
Oddjob
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Thank you all for your replies ![]() Log in to reply |
somewhere fictional 17/12/2014 at 14:50 #66763 | |
Steamer
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maxand said:A simulator doesn't have to be based on reality to simulate good signalling practices. I think it's time to permit fictitious sims so that budding developers can spread their wings without having to climb up giants in order to stand on their shoulders, as Isaac Newton might have said had he been inclined to mix metaphors.Personally, I think the latter approach would be harder. Effectively, the developer would have to create a problem (the world which they've created for the purpose of the simulation), solve it (signal the layout fully, design a watertight interlocking etc.) and finally turn it into a SimSig simulation. Generally, I think the fact is stranger than the fiction. For instance, despite its size, I've found Birmingham New Street to be very playable- the track layout just 'works', with surprisingly few conflicts. Other layouts (including some on smaller sims) are a complete pig to run. I find that the quirks and oddities makes SimSig stand out- a bit of a challenge to get the grey matter working. I must admit I've never seen the attraction in watching a simulation run itself with no problems to solve. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 17/12/2014 at 14:52 by Steamer Log in to reply |
somewhere fictional 17/12/2014 at 15:34 #66764 | |
03piggs
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What about a real place but on a closed line or a line that was surpose to of been extended; eg chingford was surpose to be a through station to high beech, but the extension was abandoned. Or the buntingford branch was planned to be extended to royston but never got beyond the idea stage, although buntingford was built as a through station. I'm working on a project by myself of what if the buntingford branch had been extended to the gn at ashwell & morden as well as the lnwr line at potton. Im creating a timetable by slotting the services into the br timetable. I think in the us, its known as prototype freelanceing. Log in to reply |
somewhere fictional 17/12/2014 at 23:18 #66774 | |
maxand
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03piggs wrote: Quote: What about a real place but on a closed line or a line that was supposed to have been extendedIf I tried mixing fiction with reality in this way I'm pretty sure the join between the two would stick out like a sore thumb after a while. What concessions to truth would have to be made to accommodate the fictional part? No, I'd be happier starting with a completely fictitious area, set within a much larger region to give it the taste of authenticity it needs, just as model railway people do. Midsomer Murders is another case of this principle in action. Steamer's description in post #8 spells out the difficulties nicely, but again, with a brand new layout unfettered by historical constraints, this could also be viewed as an abstract problem of designing appropriate signalling and full interlocking to accompany it. Maybe I'm naive, but surely interlocking for small junctions is straightforward, while interlocking for larger ones can be "borrowed" from existing examples to learn the principles. In addition, all aspects of fictitious layouts (geography, signalling, interlocking) can be tweaked until they work intuitively and there are no nasty surprises, a luxury not available in real life. This would make such a layout a good start for the beginner who looks for the logic behind a system. Much better than being fobbed off with "Well, that's how it is in real life", when faced with an illogical situation (my middle name is Spock). These incongruities don't seem to bother professional signallers who no doubt are so used to being assigned areas where everything has been functioning the same way for so long that accepting and working within them is unquestioned. (Why rock the boat - a lone signaller is unlikely to be able to anything about it.) This perfectly complements the developers' mandate to reproduce all these quirks faithfully to remain as authentic as possible. Nothing wrong with this philosophy where the exception is as important as the rule. Now, if I were designing an entirely new layout... PS Finger asked whether SimSig could handle speed signalling. This has been moved to a new thread here. I'd like to make it clear that my encouraging a fictitious layout applies to one in the UK or anywhere that is based entirely on route signalling, as IMO Simsig is not equipped at present to cater for speed signalling without a great deal of modification (see my response in the above thread). Last edited: 18/12/2014 at 11:59 by maxand Log in to reply |
somewhere fictional 19/12/2014 at 21:26 #66851 | |
Forest Pines
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" said:Are there really many examples of illogical behaviour across the whole set of sims available? Even in, say, Lancing, or Royston? I'm having trouble thinking of examples anywhere - maybe the known real-world bugs on the Nunhead-Lewisham line on Victoria SE; or having to remember which exits need a phone call. There are probably others, I know, but I don't think there are many. Log in to reply |
somewhere fictional 20/12/2014 at 12:12 #66859 | |
maxand
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Maybe "illogical" is too strong a term. "Inefficient" or "irritating" would have been preferable. E.g., in the Exeter sim, lack of automatic working across Tiverton junction comes to mind. Elsewhere, some of the interlockings I come across seem unnecessarily restrictive (I know I should be more specific here, but don't keep a record). My main peeves are to do with lack of automation enabling single-player operation, in particular lack of auto-raise on level crossings and lack of automatic signal working as mentioned above; too often these manual signals occur at extreme ends of the area, necessitating jumping from one end to the other before some express is brought to a stop. At times like this I couldn't care a toss about authenticity; all I want is a comfortable player sim where I can set anything to automatic if it helps to clear the backlog. This is one reason Wembley Suburban is one of my favourites; the other is that it all fits neatly on one screen. Maybe the kind-hearted developers could provid an extra but non-prototypical option to make all signals and level crossings automatic; this option could be turned off by the player requiring more realism. After all, TORR is available on nearly all sims yet is conspicuously absent from many in real life. Last edited: 20/12/2014 at 12:13 by maxand Log in to reply |
somewhere fictional 20/12/2014 at 12:22 #66860 | |
TimTamToe
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" said:Many of the newer sims (eg Vic Cent, Vic E & Wimbledon) do help one player simming by having ARS where the real life panels do not. Also in the new Feltham there are options on start up to have no penalties at the level crossings and also a to have it so you do not need to control the level crossings. Feltham Manual Quote:
Gareth Last edited: 20/12/2014 at 12:27 by TimTamToe Log in to reply |
somewhere fictional 20/12/2014 at 12:48 #66861 | |
lazzer
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I have to say that I enjoy the total concentration activity that is trying to run a sim like Edinburgh (1993 TT), Feltham, or Wembley Mainline in single-player. I've found it fairly easy to manage all three, despite the lack of ARS. But I also despise manual crossings, and I have to admit to playing Feltham with crossings turned off. :whistle:
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somewhere fictional 20/12/2014 at 17:03 #66868 | |
Muzer
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I've been playing Wimbledon single player with prototypical ARS (ie in the most part only on the suburban lines), standard difficulty and level crossings on with penalties, and struggling but just about managing. It's INSANELY fun. I also love Wembley Mainline. Haven't spent much time on Feltham or Edinburgh yet though. Last edited: 20/12/2014 at 17:03 by Muzer Log in to reply |
somewhere fictional 21/12/2014 at 03:50 #66885 | |
maxand
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Thanks for this info. I will look into the sims you mentioned. Maybe a future version of Exeter, Westbury etc. could include these simplifications, allowing two levels of fun.
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somewhere fictional 21/12/2014 at 04:45 #66886 | |
Muzer
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If you're wanting to try a more busy/intense sim than Exeter/Westbury/etc. (as Feltham, Wimbledon and Wembley Mainline most certainly all are), I'd personally recommend starting with Waterloo with a recent timetable (ie without Eurostar) (I seem to recall that's what I did, back when Waterloo was paged of course - maybe others will suggest an even better one). Play it a little bit with the ARS on so you get the hang of the layout and services (if you're not intimately familiar with the area). Once you think you have the hang of it, turn off the ARS completely (you might want to start a new game, or maybe not - personal preference, I suppose). Some Waterloo-specific hints once you've turned off the ARS: keep calm. Most routes can be left on auto except in the early morning and late evening - certainly all of the main slows along with the down main fast, and the up main fast in all but Clapham Junction. Windsor lines are trickier due to the narrowing to (effectively) two tracks (actually three, but the track coming straight off the up Windsor slow doesn't have a platform at Queenstown Road so it's useless for most of the services coming at you from this line - it's mostly useful for diversions or the occasional capacity boost for a train from the fasts wanting platform 19). You can usually set all the routes from Barnes up to West London Junction to auto (remembering to unset these routes when you have an ECS wanting Clapham Yard or East Putney), send each train that arrives at West London Junction onto the up Windsor line through Queenstown Road (favouring trains from the fast, of course, if they arrive around the same time, since they don't stop at Queenstown Road) and keep them on that one line (ie set auto routes) all the way to just outside Waterloo. Coming the other way, you can often set an auto route from the down Winsdor fast to the down Winsdor through Queenstown Road, since usually only ECSes are booked to use the down Windsor slow (just remember to cancel the route when you see an ECS coming, and check the timetable carefully as many are booked to wait at Vauxhall for a while). At Queenstown Road on the down, send trains onto their booked line (occasionally if there's a lot of ECS booked into the yard or other unusual stuff, they'll want to change platforms at Clapham Junction, so be wary for that so you don't send them down the wrong line - though it's not really the end of the world if you do). Wimbledon is a superset of this sim (ie it covers the same area and more) with a few improvements and corrections, so I'd highly recommend playing Waterloo before attempting Wimbledon. Same goes actually for Euston and Wembley Mainline. Play Euston first (the default timetable isn't actually designed for that layout but I think works reasonably well). Bear in mind that (unlike Waterloo and Wimbledon sims) the Euston layout in Wembley Mainline is quite different to the one in the Euston sim, since the area was quite extensively remodelled, but I'd still recommend playing Euston first. Speaking of which, Euston is another good sim to get started on the harder sims, though doesn't have the ARS to ease you into it like Waterloo does. Sorry for this rather long post, I got a bit carried away... Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
somewhere fictional 21/12/2014 at 11:34 #66893 | |
lazzer
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" said:Bear in mind that (unlike Waterloo and Wimbledon sims) the Euston layout in Wembley Mainline is quite different to the one in the Euston sim, since the area was quite extensively remodelled, but I'd still recommend playing Euston first. Speaking of which, Euston is another good sim to get started on the harder sims, though doesn't have the ARS to ease you into it like Waterloo does.I'm a huge fan of the original Euston sim, and I enjoy playing the 1980 TT on max chaos. When I downloaded Wembley Mainline it was very weird seeing Euston the "wrong way round", and with a completely new layout. The old layout certainly had its restrictions, and was clearly designed for railway operations of the time. With the disappearance of loco-hauled trains I suppose they had to upgrade the rather antiquated layout at some point. The conflict between trains wanting to leave the lower-numbered platforms for the Down Fast line and suburban trains in and out of platforms 8, 9, 10 and 11 is always frustrating, so it's very useful to have the Down Departure Line (now Line X) available. I use it quite often with the 1980 TT, especially when on max chaos mode. ![]() Log in to reply |
somewhere fictional 21/12/2014 at 15:58 #66904 | |
Muzer
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Indeed — it's funny when you realise the old layout made perfect sense when they built it. I do wonder why, later on (in the 80s and beyond) they didn't put any effort into making the "rat hole" a passenger line instead of building a flyover — would it just have been too hard? I'd actually really love a 1960s timetable for Euston so I can see it being used as it was intended. I don't have any data for one, though. Last edited: 21/12/2014 at 15:59 by Muzer Log in to reply |
somewhere fictional 21/12/2014 at 16:15 #66906 | |
lazzer
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I remember that Euston was made with the old eras in mind, but it is funny how we still don't have a 1960s TT to work with.
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somewhere fictional 21/12/2014 at 16:30 #66908 | |
Cedric
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The old Euston layout was created in the 1960s for the WCML electrification. So far as I am aware it's most intensive use was after the mid-1970s Glasgow electrification (with its intensive clock-face timetable) and before the wholesale introduction of driving van trailers (DVTs) which eliminated most of the light engine movements. The 1980 timetable, therefore, is about as intense as it got. I was the "Yard Supervisor" at Euston 1978-80 and the timetable as published on the SIM is very much as I remember it, although there were extra trips running between Euston Yard (i.e. what was then the two sidings and Plats 18-22), the DSS, Camden Yard (In those days used for stabling vans rather than EMUs) and Willesden Carriage sidings, and the SIM omits the practice of "shunting the sleepers" - a highly entertaining move on nights where several arrivals comprised trains with both passenger and sleeping vehicles. In order the clear the platforms the sleeping cars were removed from the trains on arrival and shunted together down Platform 15 (known as the shit-platform as it had troughs for collecting you-know-what). We had to drop the buck-eyes and couple up with screw couplings so as not to wake sleeping passengers. When they remodelled Euston in around 2000 no new flyovers were built but the existing ones reused and tracks slewed to give a different configuration at the north end of Camden Junctions. Over the years I've played all the SIMs (apart from Wimbledon which I am yet to get round to), and Euston PSB remains my favourite if not the most demanding! Carlisle on a pre Pendolino timetable is also pretty good. Log in to reply |
somewhere fictional 21/12/2014 at 16:50 #66910 | |
Muzer
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Oh, I see! Yeah, I never realised that about the flyover. Interesting. I agree that Euston is very fun. Though the 1980s timetable does have a few conflicting moves from the up fast to the high numbered platforms, for example. Log in to reply |
somewhere fictional 21/12/2014 at 16:54 #66911 | |
Danny252
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" said:I remember that Euston was made with the old eras in mind, but it is funny how we still don't have a 1960s TT to work with.The problem with 1960s/70s/80s (and even 90s) era modes coming out is that the devs spend months finding all the information relevant to the signalling, but then no one has the information for a timetable in the vast majority of cases. Generally, you either need to have been on the railway at the time and saved up a lot of documents (like Mr. 58050), or have quite a bit of money (or some lucky connections) to get the WTTs/station working books/trip workings etc. that are required. I'd love to whip up some 1980s TTs if I had the information, but I don't have the money to start buying up WTTs on Ebay or similar! Log in to reply |
somewhere fictional 21/12/2014 at 17:28 #66913 | |
Cedric
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My comment about the 1980s TT was in no a criticism of its author. Many of the trips that ran were just that - "trips" arranged by those on the ground at the time. They would not have appeared in any timetable - and nor would the many "specials" we ran for major events or to move the Royal Family or Bank of England bullion around the country (the Royal Mint was still in London then). There were often conflicts into the high-numbered platforms. That was what made it so interesting (along with the many light engine moves) and why a comparatively small box (only 3 route miles) had a regulator as well as the signalmen. Log in to reply |
somewhere fictional 21/12/2014 at 17:31 #66914 | |
lazzer
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" said:... and the SIM omits the practice of "shunting the sleepers" - a highly entertaining move on nights where several arrivals comprised trains with both passenger and sleeping vehicles. In order the clear the platforms the sleeping cars were removed from the trains on arrival and shunted together down Platform 15 ... Er, are you are sure about that? ![]() Last edited: 21/12/2014 at 17:31 by lazzer Log in to reply |