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| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 30/01/2015 at 17:43 #68586 | |
Lyn-Greenwood
240 posts |
In the '.exe' version of the SwinDid sim, shunt signal 277 on the Down Main at Swindon allows moves to be made 'bang road' along the Down Main to signal 683 at Bourton, and from there onto the Up Main. This allows easy access to the Up Main from the Parcels Platform, the Down Goods and the Transfer Sidings. For some reason, this shunt signal became a 'LOS' in the Loader version of the sim, so 'bang road' moves can't be made from it and access to the Up Main from the above-mentioned locations can only be achieved by moving to the LOS, and then setting back from shunt signal 214 to signal 28 and from there into the Up Main (or Platform 3). I'm told the '.exe' scenario is the correct one, so is anyone able to explain why signal 277 became a 'LOS' when the Loader version of the sim was created? It doesn't make sense to me, but there may be a good reason for the change. Lyn Greenwood Log in to reply The following user said thank you: elvis.kasel@yahoo.com |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 30/01/2015 at 18:09 #68589 | |
AndyG
1842 posts |
From the auspices of the Swindon Panel web-site archive: "The signal was formerly a limit of shunt (DM.LOS (Highworth Junction)), but was re-numbered on 6 Feb 1977 to SN.277 as part of the preparatory works for reversible signalling. The signal was initially still fixed at danger but was ultimately to become a pre-set LOS." It seems it's effectively a LoS for shunt moves towards it, it's only a running shunt for MAIN routes only from SN63, and parallel signals at Swindon Up end. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Last edited: 30/01/2015 at 18:09 by AndyG Log in to reply |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 31/01/2015 at 10:33 #68606 | |
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Lyn-Greenwood
240 posts |
" said:From the auspices of the Swindon Panel web-site archive:Thanks for this info, Andy. Unfortunately, in the Loader version of the sim, you can't set any MAIN routes from SN63 et al 'bang road' on the Down Main, but you can on the '.exe' sim. You can get as far as the LOS and no further. Something wrong here, surely? The changes in the Loader sim effectively make it more difficult to route things to the Up Main from Parcels, Transfer Sidings, etc. Any Swindon Panel experts willing to comment on this issue? Lyn Log in to reply |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 31/01/2015 at 10:42 #68607 | |
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JamesN
1607 posts |
63 towards DM (Up Dir) needs route set from 681 first. I raised this as a bug many moons ago, presumably at some point it got implemented.
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| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 31/01/2015 at 12:21 #68612 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
" said:Any Swindon Panel experts willing to comment on this issue?" said: 63 towards DM (Up Dir) needs route set from 681 first. I raised this as a bug many moons ago, presumably at some point it got implemented.As IRL, sig 63-681 requires 681-683 to be set first. Also no routes listed from 277, which would confirm it's only a 'LoS', and clears only as a running shunt when required by routes set to 681. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Last edited: 31/01/2015 at 12:26 by AndyG Reason: extra quote Log in to reply |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 31/01/2015 at 12:46 #68613 | |
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TomOF
452 posts |
Just to confirm what others have said, compare SN277 with SN216. Only one has an entrance switch.
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| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 31/01/2015 at 13:08 #68615 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
Also, the exit push-button for 277 is yellow not red, so only shunt routes to it are available.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 31/01/2015 at 13:15 #68616 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Pardon my ignorance, what's the difference between a bang road and a cornfield meet?
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| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 31/01/2015 at 13:52 #68617 | |
Steamer
3984 posts 
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" said:Pardon my ignorance, what's the difference between a bang road and a cornfield meet?Running 'Bang road' refers to running in the opposite direction to the usual direction of the line (so running in the Down direction on the Up line or Up direction on the Down). I think a cornfield meet is a head-on collision on a single line. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 31/01/2015 at 13:54 #68618 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
" said:Pardon my ignorance, what's the difference between a bang road and a cornfield meet?'Bang road' is when you send a train wrong direction along a line, presumably so called because that's a possible end result (with a capital B) if you're not careful! I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 31/01/2015 at 14:08 #68619 | |
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Lyn-Greenwood
240 posts |
" said:" said:Thanks James & Andy. I didn't know about the 681-683 pre-requirement to enable a main route to be set from 63 et al to 681. I'm now a wiser man.Any Swindon Panel experts willing to comment on this issue?" said: Log in to reply |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 31/01/2015 at 14:21 #68620 | |
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Lyn-Greenwood
240 posts |
Thanks for the picture of 277 on the real panel. Seeing the real thing does help. I notice that signal 216 on the picture is actually numbered 214 in the Sim, which has 216 at the exit from the Down Relief Sidings. Anyway, regarding signal/LOS 277, it looks as though the '.exe' version of the Sim is wrong and the Loader version is correct. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to my post. Lyn Log in to reply |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 01/02/2015 at 00:01 #68626 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
So to clarify, is there a way to get a train from 273/271 to 681, as there doesn't seem to be a direct route between (even with 681-683 set)? Do you have to do something weird like setting 273-277, then 63-681, or does that not work?
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| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 01/02/2015 at 09:18 #68628 | |
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JamesN
1607 posts |
No 271/273 can only route as far as LOS 277.
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| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 01/02/2015 at 09:51 #68629 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
" said:In the '.exe' version of the SwinDid sim, shunt signal 277 on the Down Main at Swindon allows moves to be made 'bang road' along the Down Main to signal 683 at Bourton, and from there onto the Up Main. This allows easy access to the Up Main from the Parcels Platform, the Down Goods and the Transfer Sidings.In SimSig, I think I'm right in saying that a train passing a shunt/GPL signal will only run at 15mph until it sights a Main Aspect signal. That might take some minutes on that route and delay other trains. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 01/02/2015 at 11:34 #68630 | |
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Lyn-Greenwood
240 posts |
" said:" said:I've fixed the problem (in the TT I was using) by routing from Transfer Sidings to LOS(277), then setting back from S214 to Up Main or P3 (or even the Down Main) and moving on from there. For trains in the Parcels platform, I set back to Rushey Platt and then move in the Up direction from there. Only took a few TT edits to achieve this, but the shunt moves may get in the way of other trains, so I'll have to see how it works out.In the '.exe' version of the SwinDid sim, shunt signal 277 on the Down Main at Swindon allows moves to be made 'bang road' along the Down Main to signal 683 at Bourton, and from there onto the Up Main. This allows easy access to the Up Main from the Parcels Platform, the Down Goods and the Transfer Sidings.In SimSig, I think I'm right in saying that a train passing a shunt/GPL signal will only run at 15mph until it sights a Main Aspect signal. That might take some minutes on that route and delay other trains. Now I know that the Loader version of the sim is correct regarding the LOS restrictions, I'm quite happy to adapt old '.exe' timetables accordingly. I wonder how trains were dispatched in the Up direction from the Parcels platform in the 'old days'. Does anyone know? Lyn Log in to reply |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 02/02/2015 at 00:19 #68657 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Does a "bang road" need to be signalled in both directions for a signaller to direct "wrong way" operations along it? My guess would be no. In that case, how is a train signalled "wrong way" in real life? In SimSig, one just signals the driver to reverse, pass a red, etc. I kinda understand what previous posters have said about these roads but still unclear. Thanks.
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| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 02/02/2015 at 00:53 #68658 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
I'm not in the industry, so take these answers with a pinch of salt. I know that for long or planned periods of unsignalled wrong-line running, pilotman working is required, which unfortunately cannot be simulated (in arbitrary locations, I mean) in SimSig. It involves having a person whose presence in a train authorises its entry onto the wrong line. I believe it has to be enforced for correct-direction running too otherwise it wouldn't make much sense, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. For even longer periods or periods when no signalling exists entirely, temporary block working is used, which I'm not entirely clear on, but I think it involves paper-based movement authorities of some sort. I'm not sure about wrong-line running in one-off occasions, I suspect if regulated well and no other train is allowed anywhere near, it can be done, but this is just a feeling, I don't know anything to block this up. Please correct me if I'm wrong with any of this. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 02/02/2015 at 07:27 #68660 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:I'm not in the industry, so take these answers with a pinch of salt. Ooh, my grey cell is feeling a bit stretched by this. Essentially, 1 and 3 both exist. 1 is Single Line Working, used to be Section M of the Rule Book in my day. In Track Circuit Block areas there would have been no signals that could be worked for trains in the wrong direction. That would mean every automatic level crossing under local control; I can't quite recall the arrangements for CCTV crossings but I suspect either local control likewise or a handsignalman working to signalman's instructions. In Absolute Block areas, signals at intermediate boxes on the single line were supposed to be worked for trains in the wrong direction (with track circuit & other controls disconnected as necessary for the duration). That was how level crossings would be protected there. Points that became facing had to be clipped and padlocked. I won't go in to detonator protection or the paperwork... just be assured it was quite a palaver and not done if there was any other way out of it. (I only experienced it once as a signalman, I was at North Pole Junction when the down road was blocked by a derailment at Kensington and the Area Manager put in single line working to get the St Austell Motorail away.) 3 is only for getting assistance to a train where it has to be assisted from one end and the only assistance that's available is blocked in the wrong side. It requires authorisation by someone with a suitable degree of seniority (who is, of course, expected to take responsibility for ensuring nowt goes wrong). 2 would apply where there is a long-term problem in a double-line section but a pilotman would definitely be required if there was only a single line. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 02/02/2015 at 09:48 #68663 | |
postal
5264 posts
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Of course the actual rules for working in today's real world can always be read online in the RSSB Rule Book.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 02/02/2015 at 09:49 by postal Log in to reply |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 02/02/2015 at 11:53 #68665 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks, I expected wrong way working to involve a lot more manpower, and Keith Barber's post (thank you again Keith for your erudition) did not disappoint. Single line working is not the same as wrong way working, though. Sorry Postal, I followed your RSSB link and could not find a search engine in it capable of taking me to the relevant page. Googling "wrong way working" for British Rail was not helpful. Maybe someone with detailed knowledge could post a link to the correct page, all the better to help us avoid something like this: Indian train travels 980km in wrong direction... without any rail staff noticing. On searching the forum I found a couple of threads, but the first, Unsafe reversing, has more to do with runaway trains and the second, ,Swindon A+B Wrong Road Running with timetable difficulties. Last edited: 02/02/2015 at 11:57 by maxand Log in to reply |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 02/02/2015 at 12:03 #68666 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
The term Wrong Way/Wrong Road/Bang Road movement simply refers to any movement that is against the normal direction of traffic, and doesn't actually have any specific meaning as far as I'm aware. It could mean signalled moves that are simply not in the normal direction, abnormal (but still authorised) movements such as those involved in Single Line Working, runaway trains, or anything else you might imagine.
Last edited: 02/02/2015 at 12:04 by Danny252 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 02/02/2015 at 14:28 #68668 | |
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Steamer
3984 posts
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" said:Try the link that says 'Working By Pilotman' 
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 02/02/2015 at 16:07 #68671 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
" said:" said:"Single Line Working" and "Working of Single and Bi-Directional Lines By Pilotman" are two completely different operating methods which are covered in different modules of the current GE/RT8000 Rule Book (modules P1 and P2 respectively).Try the link that says 'Working By Pilotman' ;) In any case, don't confuse either of the above with a "Wrong-direction Movement" - the instructions for which can be found in Rule Book module TW7. Last edited: 02/02/2015 at 16:09 by Ron_J Reason: Added missing word "module" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| LOS on Down Main at Swindon 02/02/2015 at 17:23 #68672 | |
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Lardybiker
771 posts |
" said:Thanks, I expected wrong way working to involve a lot more manpower, and Keith Barber's post (thank you again Keith for your erudition) did not disappoint.Try this Wrong Direciton working Log in to reply |