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2009TT---Freight timed to stop right in middle of the complex junction? 05/08/2023 at 10:37 #152642 | |
KCRCRailway
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Leeds City was certainly entertaining enough once you rememeber what goes where on the Leeds West JN---But one thing confused me and make life full of pain is that apparantly almost all freight I encountered in first 10 hour here are timed to STOP at places such as Whitehall JN or Engine Shed JN. Was it a slight mistake in TT that they should pass instead of stop then resume, or they indeed need to stop here blocking the track to Bradford and Huddersfield? As the file shows 4E55 and 4S78 are timed to stop at Whitehall JN for a whooping 30+min. They indeed leave immediately once signal was clear but I still wonder why it was set as stop in TT? Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply |
2009TT---Freight timed to stop right in middle of the complex junction? 05/08/2023 at 13:13 #152648 | |
0D07
![]() 80 posts |
KCRCRailway in post 152642 said:Leeds City was certainly entertaining enough once you rememeber what goes where on the Leeds West JN---But one thing confused me and make life full of pain is that apparantly almost all freight I encountered in first 10 hour here are timed to STOP at places such as Whitehall JN or Engine Shed JN. Was it a slight mistake in TT that they should pass instead of stop then resume, or they indeed need to stop here blocking the track to Bradford and Huddersfield?No not a mistake that is what happens and used to happen at Whitehall and Engine Shed Jn with the Anglo Scottish coal moves and Gyspum trains to and from Kirkby Thore and any other freight traffic, the trains souldn't foul the junctions at each end whitehall curve can esily accomodate a 66+21 HTA/HHA/HYA/HXA's Ta, Delta Zero Seven Log in to reply The following user said thank you: KCRCRailway |
2009TT---Freight timed to stop right in middle of the complex junction? 05/08/2023 at 16:12 #152651 | |
bill_gensheet
![]() 1357 posts |
Standing on the curve is Whitehall Jn (north, for 4S78) and Engine Shed Jn (south, for 4E55), and both do fit OK. There's three things going on here. Firstly both trains in the save are considerably early. If you let early trains run you are going to have some fun, and ARS routes by timetable. So in the save both trains are giving priority to some ECS. Secondly with the times in the timetable set as standard stops you will sometimes get freight trains waiting for time. Using the 'pathing stop' type would be more appropriate especially for the stops not on the curve, as that ensures trains will move off when signalled. eg 4E55 at Whitehall West, 4S78 at Engine Shed Jn. If the long stops were for crew changes, then actual crew change activities or equivalent rules are needed in the TT. Unfortunately there is no rule for different locations, so you cannot have '4E55 must not depart Engine Shed jn until 20 minutes after 4S78 arrives at Whitehall Jn' That would need a 'station' called Whitehall curve which I suspect is not in the WTT source ![]() Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: KCRCRailway |
2009TT---Freight timed to stop right in middle of the complex junction? 06/08/2023 at 02:52 #152660 | |
KCRCRailway
![]() 32 posts |
bill_gensheet in post 152651 said:Standing on the curve is Whitehall Jn (north, for 4S78) and Engine Shed Jn (south, for 4E55), and both do fit OK.Thanks for reply, there is occasionally a train that will call at the Leeds FLT's AD Line for actual crew change. I can at least redirect train that supposed to stop at the JNs stop at the Hunslet Yard/FLT instead for now, feels a bit easier to manage traffc flow that way (probably against some rules though?) Log in to reply |
2009TT---Freight timed to stop right in middle of the complex junction? 06/08/2023 at 02:54 #152661 | |
KCRCRailway
![]() 32 posts |
0D07 in post 152648 said:KCRCRailway in post 152642 said:Thanks Delta Zero Seven, I do wonder what was the intention of the TT planned as so consider theres 1(2) yard available right at Leeds FLT/Hunslet which seems perfect for holding such train? Might be obvious if I visited that area IRL but I barely visit LeedsLeeds City was certainly entertaining enough once you rememeber what goes where on the Leeds West JN---But one thing confused me and make life full of pain is that apparantly almost all freight I encountered in first 10 hour here are timed to STOP at places such as Whitehall JN or Engine Shed JN. Was it a slight mistake in TT that they should pass instead of stop then resume, or they indeed need to stop here blocking the track to Bradford and Huddersfield?No not a mistake that is what happens and used to happen at Whitehall and Engine Shed Jn with the Anglo Scottish coal moves and Gyspum trains to and from Kirkby Thore and any other freight traffic, the trains souldn't foul the junctions at each end whitehall curve can esily accomodate a 66+21 HTA/HHA/HYA/HXA's ![]() Log in to reply |
2009TT---Freight timed to stop right in middle of the complex junction? 06/08/2023 at 06:05 #152664 | |
jc92
![]() 3649 posts |
Hunslet yard is owned/operated by freightliner. If DB and GBRF used it, they'd have to pay a fee to do so, as opposed to sitting at Whitehall which is free. Also you'd need ground staff present at Hunslet which costs money compared to sitting on the mainline waiting time. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: KCRCRailway |
2009TT---Freight timed to stop right in middle of the complex junction? 06/08/2023 at 09:49 #152669 | |
KCRCRailway
![]() 32 posts |
jc92 in post 152664 said:Hunslet yard is owned/operated by freightliner. If DB and GBRF used it, they'd have to pay a fee to do so, as opposed to sitting at Whitehall which is free.Will things be better back in BR's time as yard could be shared, or the GF's operator means it still cost too much? Log in to reply |
2009TT---Freight timed to stop right in middle of the complex junction? 06/08/2023 at 10:18 #152671 | |
bill_gensheet
![]() 1357 posts |
While I could not find a 2009 'YH' WTT in the NR archive, there is the 2007 version with similar trains. This shows the Engine Shed Jn / Whitehall Jn times as pathing/regulating stops, there are no crew changes. [Seems likely crew usually did Carlisle - Power Station - Carlisle in one shift.] Corrected below. This will still result in the ARS in SimSig have 'early' trains give priority to other nearby conflicting trains, in a fairly simplistic manner. ARS is rule based, and does not do well when there are more than two trains to consider. Having 'hard' stops is a timetable bug, but in fairness this timetable may predate the newer stop types such as 'regulating' needed here. Freight trains can leave early some of the time anyway. Bill Last edited: 06/08/2023 at 16:34 by bill_gensheet Reason: note correction below Log in to reply The following user said thank you: KCRCRailway |
2009TT---Freight timed to stop right in middle of the complex junction? 06/08/2023 at 10:50 #152672 | |
58050
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KCRCRailway in post 152669 said:jc92 in post 152664 said:Back in BR days nobody batted an eyelid at things like this. Signalmen regulated trains to avoid delaying any Cl.1 or Cl.2 services but usually for traincrew relief purposes freight trains would be stopped somewhere where they could route other services around the freight trains & when the box received a phone call to say the forward crew was ready & waiting they'd then signal the train forward so as to ensure that if a junction was blocked when the train stopped for a crew change it would only have been blocked for the shortest time. There wasn't any nonsense back then about companies having to pay other companies for their trains losing time due to another service being in the way & blocking the route like there is today & in some cases in certain areas certain freight trains had priority running over all passenger services as I've witnessed several times when I was on the footplate during the mid to late 1980s.Hunslet yard is owned/operated by freightliner. If DB and GBRF used it, they'd have to pay a fee to do so, as opposed to sitting at Whitehall which is free.Will things be better back in BR's time as yard could be shared, or the GF's operator means it still cost too much? Log in to reply The following user said thank you: KCRCRailway |
2009TT---Freight timed to stop right in middle of the complex junction? 06/08/2023 at 11:16 #152674 | |
0D07
![]() 80 posts |
bill_gensheet in post 152671 said:While I could not find a 2009 'YH' WTT in the NR archive, there is the 2007 version with similar trains.Regarding the manning of the trains depending on where the train originated from. The traincrew would normally work the trains from Ayr (EWS/DBS) or Barassie (FLHH) These men was in the Link of 25 or so Drivers known as the Lodge Link. The worked trains up from Milford West Sidings or Hunslet Yard and worked one back the next day. There was some driver that traveled passenger (in a van or on a train) and they would work trains from Carlisle to Milford, Stourton SDS or A&D or Hunslet Yard or Neck or Doncaster Down Decoy or Milford Jn or Knottingley or Ferrybridge North Jn dependent on where the train was going and who operator was. You could not work one down from Carlisle discharge it in a power station and work back in shift. Carlisle based men would work to Hunslet and Turners Lane out and back like Knottingley, Healey MillS, Ferrybridge FLHH & Midland Road FLHH would work out and back in shift that just about worked on an 11hr 30mins shift. Zero Delta Zero Seven Log in to reply The following users said thank you: KCRCRailway, Soton_Speed, bill_gensheet |