Train speeds and classes

Out of interest, would it be possible to add 'max speed' as an option? I keep getting stung on 1980s TTs when class 6 trains have different speeds :D

Splodge in post 126993 said:

Out of interest, would it be possible to add 'max speed' as an option? I keep getting stung on 1980s TTs when class 6 trains have different speeds :D

Class 6 trains have a max permitted speed of 60mph. The time it takes to get to line speed will depend on it's load, gradient of the line etc.

under the 1960's description scheme trains were classified based on braking and type rather than speed

Cl.A/1 - Express passenger
Cl.B/2 - Local stopping passenger
Cl.C/3 - Parcels fish or fruit fully composed of "coaching stock"
Empty stock working
Cl.C/4 - Express freight fully piped with at least 50% brakes operative
Cl.D/5 - Express freight partially fitted with at least 1/3rd brakes operative
Cl.E/6 - Express Freight partially fitted with no less than 4 braked vehicles next to the engine
OR
Express Freight with a limited load NOT fitted with automatic brakes
Cl.F/7 - express freight NOT fitted with an automatic brake
Cl.G/0 - light loco or engine and brake van
Cl.H/8 - Through freight not running under any of the above codes
Cl.J/9 - Mineral or empty wagon train
Cl.K/9 - Freight train stopping at intermediate stations

My 1972 rulebook redefines a number of these as

Cl.3 - a freight authorised to operate at 90mph or over
Cl.4 - freight authorised to run at 75mph or over (rather than under)
Cl.5 - ECS
Cl.6 - Fully fitted company or block train OR Fully fitted express freight
Cl.7-8 - freights not fully fitted but with brakeforces shown in the working manual
Cl.9 - unfitted freight

As can be seen the classification is all about brakeforce so, for example the Hardendale Ravenscraig is a fully fitted company train, hence Class 6, however even with full braking, its still limited to 35mph because of the weight, quality of wagons and quality of brakeforce. similarly the Presflos Vince mentioned were 55mph but still class 6 as they rang in fully fitted Company trains.

Interestingly certain trains changed headcodes daily depending on their consistency. If for instance a train was made up of All air braked wagons on Monday it could run as 6***, however if the following day it was made up of say 10 air and 10 air piped, vacuum only wagons, it might run as 7***. this was quite common in the 70s where the wagon fleet was a major mix-up of brake types. An interesting read is the accident report on a SPAD and collision at Weaver junction caused by incorrect train classification.

These classifications didn't change until the requirement to have all freight fully fitted came in.

Thanks everyone - I think you've nicely proved the point! I know class 6 is 'up to', but unless it's written in the description I have no idea what that up to speed is which makes regulating decisions a bit tougher on those long stretches between Carnforth, Carlisle and Carstairs.

Splodge in post 127008 said:

Thanks everyone - I think you've nicely proved the point! I know class 6 is 'up to', but unless it's written in the description I have no idea what that up to speed is which makes regulating decisions a bit tougher on those long stretches between Carnforth, Carlisle and Carstairs.

A fair point to raise here is that when Carlisle 79 was written and tested, the notes function wasn't existent. maybe a future update could include a note confirming a restrictive speed on such workings. one for John or Pascal.

jc92 in post 127009 said:

Splodge in post 127008 said:

Thanks everyone - I think you've nicely proved the point! I know class 6 is 'up to', but unless it's written in the description I have no idea what that up to speed is which makes regulating decisions a bit tougher on those long stretches between Carnforth, Carlisle and Carstairs.

A fair point to raise here is that when Carlisle 79 was written and tested, the notes function wasn't existent. maybe a future update could include a note confirming a restrictive speed on such workings. one for John or Pascal.

It'd make far more sense to put that in the train description that the notes.

headshot119 in post 127010 said:

jc92 in post 127009 said:

Splodge in post 127008 said:

Thanks everyone - I think you've nicely proved the point! I know class 6 is 'up to', but unless it's written in the description I have no idea what that up to speed is which makes regulating decisions a bit tougher on those long stretches between Carnforth, Carlisle and Carstairs.

A fair point to raise here is that when Carlisle 79 was written and tested, the notes function wasn't existent. maybe a future update could include a note confirming a restrictive speed on such workings. one for John or Pascal.

It'd make far more sense to put that in the train description that the notes.

If we are after historical accuracy, what is in the TT is what the signaller in the box saw. I don't see any reason to change what is currently available to make life easier today than it was when Mr. Taylor and his colleagues were running the PSB.

headshot119 in post 127010 said:

jc92 in post 127009 said:

Splodge in post 127008 said:

Thanks everyone - I think you've nicely proved the point! I know class 6 is 'up to', but unless it's written in the description I have no idea what that up to speed is which makes regulating decisions a bit tougher on those long stretches between Carnforth, Carlisle and Carstairs.

A fair point to raise here is that when Carlisle 79 was written and tested, the notes function wasn't existent. maybe a future update could include a note confirming a restrictive speed on such workings. one for John or Pascal.

It'd make far more sense to put that in the train description that the notes.

If we are after historical accuracy, what is in the TT is what the signaller in the box saw. I don't see any reason to change what is currently available to make life easier today than it was when Mr. Taylor and his colleagues were running the PSB.

And that was my point John. The WTT explicitly states "not to exceed 35mph" for the hardendale - ravenscraig workings. All there in black and tan. Photo attached

An interesting read is the accident report on a SPAD and collision at Weaver junction caused by incorrect train classification.

jc92 in post 127026 said:

And that was my point John. The WTT explicitly states "not to exceed 35mph" for the hardendale - ravenscraig workings. All there in black and tan. Photo attached

That exactly proves the point about trying to be realistic. The real life signaller has to refer to the WTT to get that information. The SimSig signaller can do the same by referring to the SimSig TT. The only information on the displays on the panel would be the TD; the only information in the SigSig view is the TD. The SimSig signaller has the luxury of the F2 display which the real life signaller did not have.

Remember that there is nothing to stop the SimSig signaller doing the same sort of things as the real-life counterpart. They can use Post-It notes, they can add notes to their copy of the SimSig TT (although it would then be wisest to save the TT under an edited name as any update from the centre would over-write the file copy of the original TT) or they can use a separate file with a list of points to note. After all, this would just reflect real life; when Pascal originally created the TT he was lucky enough to have as part of the source documentation a copy of the Carlisle Stations As&Ds hand-annotated by Mr. Taylor with the notes that he thought would be helpful.

Until about 1983 (it was about the time I became supervisor at the Brent), timetable speeds for fully-fitted trains were given as 'up to Xmph'. Trains would indeed be reclassified from day to day according to what was being conveyed, so if a train booked as cl6 was made up of all 75mph car carrying vehicles, it would run as cl4. TOPS automatically output the appropriate classification on the train list.

The problem (one very particular problem that, I suspect, caught people out quite often) was when a train was made up of 100kmph ferry vans. TOPS would output a cl4 train list, and it would set off merrily as such. At a maximum speed of 62mph!!!

Around 1983, the wording of the classification was revised so cl4 was to be capable of 75mph, cl6 became 60mph, etc. Made regulating a whole lot easier.

Until about 1983 (it was about the time I became supervisor at the Brent), timetable speeds for fully-fitted trains were given as 'up to Xmph'. .....

Around 1983, the wording of the classification was revised so cl4 was to be capable of 75mph, cl6 became 60mph, etc.

kbarber in post 127037 said:

Until about 1983 (it was about the time I became supervisor at the Brent), timetable speeds for fully-fitted trains were given as 'up to Xmph'. Trains would indeed be reclassified from day to day according to what was being conveyed, so if a train booked as cl6 was made up of all 75mph car carrying vehicles, it would run as cl4. TOPS automatically output the appropriate classification on the train list.

The problem (one very particular problem that, I suspect, caught people out quite often) was when a train was made up of 100kmph ferry vans. TOPS would output a cl4 train list, and it would set off merrily as such. At a maximum speed of 62mph!!!

Around 1983, the wording of the classification was revised so cl4 was to be capable of 75mph, cl6 became 60mph, etc. Made regulating a whole lot easier.

Interesting, the 1972 block book shows:

Class 3 - Express parcels train composed of vehicles permitted to run at 90 mph or over (1-3-1).

Class 4 - Freightliner train (3-2-5) or Parcels train, Company or express freight train composed of vehicles permitted to run at 75 mph or over (3-1-1).

Was there a change to "up to x mph" later in the 1970s or were the classifications shown in the block book not actually correct?