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An Italian Line!

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An Italian Line! 02/02/2011 at 01:01 #2319
Aaron86
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Export SimSig in Italy, plenty of fans would enjoy it and it souldn't be so hard to adapt the programe!
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An Italian Line! 02/02/2011 at 01:01 #13370
Aaron86
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Export SimSig in Italy, plenty of fans would enjoy it and it souldn't be so hard to adapt the programe!
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An Italian Line! 02/02/2011 at 14:07 #13375
Albert
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1315 posts
I would also support this. The line to Rome Fiumicino Airport for example?
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An Italian Line! 04/02/2011 at 14:33 #13398
Aaron86
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it would be easier for me gettin informations for the Milan-Malpensa Airoport railways for example, as I work for the railways in northen Italy!
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An Italian Line! 04/02/2011 at 15:07 #13399
Albert
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I just said the only Italian line I've ever been on (except for the narrow-gauge Naples-Sorrento)
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An Italian Line! 09/02/2011 at 16:38 #13496
Forest Pines
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525 posts
Funnily enough I was wondering how plausible a foreign Simsig would be the other day - a week in Berlin left me thinking "ooh, a Simsig that covered the Stadtbahn would be fun". It would require rather a lot of rewriting of the core logic, I imagine, so is probably low down on the devs' to-do list.
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An Italian Line! 09/02/2011 at 21:24 #13503
LaurentD
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Hi,

I think for german signalboxes there are very specific simulation aviable. For mechanical boxes there is a good simulation which is very close on the technical side but not for public using cause it is software for the traincompany.

And for the ESTW (that is the newest side for technical solutions using by german netcompanies on the base of computer) there are simulations which can be buyed by costumers. But these simulation are located only in the area for Bremen and the South of Baden-Württemberg which can be chained together.

For the relais-signalboxes "Dr" there is a good simulation also aviable. So I don't think that the SimSig (which is a good simulation at all!) cannot show how german signalboxes are working in the end, cause the using is different in the rules and in the philosophie of signalisation.

Greetings from Germany

Markus

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An Italian Line! 10/02/2011 at 13:17 #13530
kbarber
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Very much subject to confirmation by someone who knows, I can't see why there should be any major problem with simulating non-UK layouts. UK signalling tends to be rather more restrictive than most others (overlaps, trapping and flank protection are obvious examples). It would be possible, I'm sure, to program a sim with no overlaps and without requiring points set for trapping or flanking - quite likely easier than programing a typical British location!

What might need changes in the core code is any means of representing non-UK signal aspects. But even that would fairly easily be overcome by enforcing compulsory panel indications. I imagine speed signalling could be fiddled by setting turnout speed limits to match the speeds indicated by the relevant aspects?

But of course getting the information is likely to be even more interesting than getting hold of UK stuff. But I must admit I wouldn't mind a Kandersteg or an Erstfeld if such could be got together - a busy shift at either of those looked fairly mind-blowing to me!

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An Italian Line! 11/02/2011 at 01:03 #13568
UKTrainMan
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If this went ahead, Venice (with the long bridge between the mainland and the Island) or Florence would be interesting and ones I wouldn't mind seeing done.

kbarber said:
What might need changes in the core code is any means of representing non-UK signal aspects.  But even that would fairly easily be overcome by enforcing compulsory panel indications.
Not sure if I've misunderstood you there but I note that with CScot the mechanical signalling is represented with the 'two aspects'. Surely something similarish to this could simply be used?

Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
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An Italian Line! 11/02/2011 at 10:19 #13576
kbarber
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UKTrainMan said:
If this went ahead, Venice (with the long bridge between the mainland and the Island) or Florence would be interesting and ones I wouldn't mind seeing done.

kbarber said:
What might need changes in the core code is any means of representing non-UK signal aspects.  But even that would fairly easily be overcome by enforcing compulsory panel indications.
Not sure if I've misunderstood you there but I note that with CScot the mechanical signalling is represented with the 'two aspects'. Surely something similarish to this could simply be used?

The fact that most continental railways use speed signalling would perhaps make things difficult. I think the German & Swiss green-over-yellows could be shown easily but as the choice of what to display (GY or just G) depends solely on the speed of the route set the logic would need to be rather different. Italian railways make use of stacked flashing aspects and two flashing simultaneously have quite a different meaning to flashing alternately (but I never did quite work out what/how).

French practice would be interesting to replicate in a display - RR (Carre) is different from R (Semaphore) and really would need to be simulated (S is usually Franchissable in auto sections so stop-&-proceed working would also need simulating - presumably could be done by a "hidden authorisation to pass at danger" the way some other things are done with hidden aspects already). YY horizontally is "Ralentissement", advance warning of a 30kmh divergence with YY vertically "Rappel de Ralentissement" at the signal protecting the junction; the former would normally be shown together with G (Voie Libre), the latter with Y (Avertissement, equivalent to Y in UK practice) if the signal beyond the turnout is at red or with no other light at all if the signal beyond the junction is showing any proceed aspect. Ralentissement and Rappel de Ralentissement can also be flashing in which case the turnout speed is 60kmh.

So I guess a fair bit of the functionality can be simulated relatively easily but the indications would be somewhat of a nightmare unless they were restricted to panel indications only.

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An Italian Line! 11/02/2011 at 11:18 #13577
Peter Bennet
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UKTrainMan said:

kbarber said:
What might need changes in the core code is any means of representing non-UK signal aspects.  But even that would fairly easily be overcome by enforcing compulsory panel indications.
Not sure if I've misunderstood you there but I note that with CScot the mechanical signalling is represented with the 'two aspects'. Surely something similarish to this could simply be used?
On CScot the signalling is actually mainly 3 aspect with code to force Yellow aspect where it'd be otherwise under IECC rules be Green i.e. within the AB sections (for train dynamic control) but then I've then simply changed the display colour. So a Y aspect as understood by the Sim appears to the user to be Green.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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An Italian Line! 11/02/2011 at 13:55 #13580
clive
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The core code contains facilities to allow aspects to be shown in any way the developer likes - I could create a sim where the G aspect was shown as green over yellow, the Y aspect as red, and the R aspect as a triangle of blues! Anyone who's seen SimSig Euston will have seen the non-standard signals there. The displayed aspect can also depend on anything else, such as which route is set. So I could, for example, display "Mirfield" signal aspects in a simulation. The only restriction is that only the FY and FYY aspects can be made to flash in the sim (hence, so far, no flashing greens on Peterborough).

Stop and proceed can be done by a subsidiary which you don't draw.

Omitting overlaps and flank locking is trivial. Speed signalling would be rather more tedious, but I can think of a way to do it with the present core code.

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An Italian Line! 11/02/2011 at 14:15 #13582
clive
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My understanding of Italian signals is:
* Yellow indicates stop at the next signal.
* Flashing yellow is our double yellow - stop at a signal after the next one, but you may need to start braking now.
* Yellow over green means reduce to 30 km/h by the next signal.
* Yellow over green, both flashing together, means reduce to 60 km/h by the next signal.
* Yellow over green, flashing alternately, means reduce to 100 km/h by the next signal.
* Double yellow indicates you are going into a bay, siding, or occupied track.
* A red light above any of these aspects means you are taking the diverging route. But you also get multiple-head signals.
* At some junction signals, a white bar below the signal indicates a 60 km/h divergence and two white bars a 100 km/h, in each case repeating the limit shown by the preceding signal. No bar but a red at the top then says to obey the limit given by the preceding signal.

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An Italian Line! 11/02/2011 at 15:07 #13584
Peter Bennet
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Do any of them actually mean stop now - or is that not the Italian way!

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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An Italian Line! 11/02/2011 at 15:14 #13586
Albert
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_railway_signalling
Here is some information on Italian signalling. Note that flashing aspects don't work properly on that page.

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An Italian Line! 11/02/2011 at 15:17 #13587
flymo
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Peter Bennet said:
Do any of them actually mean stop now - or is that not the Italian way!
Haha, funniest post I've read in ages. :lol: If the railways are anything like the roads then no.....

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An Italian Line! 11/02/2011 at 21:07 #13604
clive
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Ha ha.

Plain red is stop.

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An Italian Line! 12/02/2011 at 12:38 #13616
Aaron86
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clive said:
My understanding of Italian signals is:
* Yellow indicates stop at the next signal.
* Flashing yellow is our double yellow - stop at a signal after the next one, but you may need to start braking now.
* Yellow over green means reduce to 30 km/h by the next signal.
* Yellow over green, both flashing together, means reduce to 60 km/h by the next signal.
* Yellow over green, flashing alternately, means reduce to 100 km/h by the next signal.
* Double yellow indicates you are going into a bay, siding, or occupied track.
* A red light above any of these aspects means you are taking the diverging route. But you also get multiple-head signals.
* At some junction signals, a white bar below the signal indicates a 60 km/h divergence and two white bars a 100 km/h, in each case repeating the limit shown by the preceding signal. No bar but a red at the top then says to obey the limit given by the preceding signal.

That's right, only 2 things, Flashing Yellow means that the signal after the next one it's nearer then it should be (distances between signals here in Italy is 1350m), AND it's not opened for free transit, that means you could meet after a Yellow and then a Red signal, but also a YG signal and after a RY or RG. FY aspect it's also used to protect a station when the departure signal it's still closed, indipendently on the distance of the signals (FY - Y - station R).
A red over any aspect (can be RG, RY or RfY, RYG with YG flashing or not) must be read dividing the signal aspects, the red above any other aspect is a confirm of the speed restriction given from the preceding signal (doesn't actually mean you're going on a diverting route), the aspect under (G,Y or FY,YG) tells u how the line haed is (line clear, next signal stop, next signal speed restriction) as a common signal.
White bars under the signal, called Rappel, (not only on junction but entering a station too, in any case there can be a speed reduction with the Red over Any aspect) it's only an help for train drivers, as the signal could be closed when they arrived (Red and the preceding signal Y) and then open Red over any other, so the driver hasn't seen the YG signal and can't know if he must go 30, 60 or 100 km/h. If the signal doesn't have Rappels, he must go the slowest, 30 km/h (maybe because the speed limit is 30, maybe because the signal doesen't have Rappels!). Signallers won't see the Rappel.

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An Italian Line! 14/02/2011 at 12:44 #13652
kbarber
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clive said:
The core code contains facilities to allow aspects to be shown in any way the developer likes - I could create a sim where the G aspect was shown as green over yellow, the Y aspect as red, and the R aspect as a triangle of blues! Anyone who's seen SimSig Euston will have seen the non-standard signals there. The displayed aspect can also depend on anything else, such as which route is set. So I could, for example, display "Mirfield" signal aspects in a simulation. The only restriction is that only the FY and FYY aspects can be made to flash in the sim (hence, so far, no flashing greens on Peterborough).

Stop and proceed can be done by a subsidiary which you don't draw.

Omitting overlaps and flank locking is trivial. Speed signalling would be rather more tedious, but I can think of a way to do it with the present core code.

Sounds good Clive.

So: who's got the detailed information the developers would need to write a continental sim? And which developers have the time? Given that most of the UK seems to be simulated or under development at the moment, maybe we should branch out.

(Large smiley thing here.)

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An Italian Line! 14/02/2011 at 14:38 #13662
Aaron86
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I work for Northen Italy railways, so i can access to detailed informations for many lines near Milan.
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An Italian Line! 20/03/2011 at 13:16 #14104
Mattyq
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259 posts
Well, I've mentioned time and again creating a Queensland Rail (Australia) sim. Easy as, given that we run on UK signalling!! Imagine signalling double line bidirectional trackage carrying 104 wagon coal trains at hourly intervals!! These trains run at 80km/h and mix it up with 100km/h freighters and 160km/h passenger trains!!
Not fat ..... fluffy!! (G Iglesias)
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Re: An Italian Line! 15/11/2011 at 05:07 #22953
maxand
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1637 posts
Aaron86, are you aware of an Italian train signalling sim named Train Director?
It's written by an American Italian named Giampero Caprino, so his English is good. The website has pages in several languages; the English version is fine. However, the posts in the Yahoo! Group running the forum are mostly in Italian, though using translating tools gets around this problem. As this is intended to be a clone of the US-based Train Dispatcher 3, it is relatively easy to write sims for it and there are plenty for European countries. Not understanding Italian signalling, I can't vouch for the accuracy. However, playing it is enjoyable even if it is a little rough round the edges at times. I'm not fond of the way trains are represented diagonally, nor the black tracks on a grey background.

Mattyq, I too would enjoy creating an Australian sim. You're lucky to be in Queensland, where

Quote:
Queensland (signalling): Follows UK practice, except that flashing yellow allows simultaneous entry into a crossing loop with no overlaps.
(Wikipedia)

However,
Quote:
Just as the railways of Australia has suffered issues from incompatible rail gauges, the different states have tended to go their own way regarding railway signalling practice.
...
Railway signals in New South Wales broadly follow British route signalling practice, with certain American influences and local innovations.
...
The railways of Victoria use a mix of railway signalling practices: British route signalling with home and distant signals (2 position signalling) and American speed signalling (3 position signalling).
etc.

Still, as UK signalling is closest to our own practice, it shouldn't be too difficult to adapt SimSig to it without becoming ultra-realistic. Other UK signalling sims such as PC Rail have an Australian sim. Anyone else interested in helping create one?

Last edited: 16/11/2011 at 01:12 by maxand
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Re: An Italian Line! 16/11/2011 at 21:07 #23095
BarryM
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Quote:
Still, as UK signalling is closest to our own practice, it shouldn't be too difficult to adapt SimSig to it without becoming ultra-realistic. Other UK signalling sims such as PC Rail have an Australian sim. Anyone else interested in helping create one?
I suggest you buy Track Builder then you can create one to your hearts content. Simsig is "ultra- realistic" for the very reason it is designed for.

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Last edited: 16/11/2011 at 21:11 by BarryM
Reason: add

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