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Extra timetable activities 16/03/2021 at 19:35 #137889 | |
DavidSplett
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In the working timetable there are a few labels such as stops for operating reasons, stops for token exchange (etc), which don’t feature in the SimSig timetable editor. Would it be possible to consider adding some of these? The reason I ask is on the KX sim there are a few ECS trains which have an arrival and departure at Drayton Park to cater for the power changeover. If there was an activity such as “stops for operational purposes” this could then be treated in the same way as stops to set down, namely that the train could then depart early. I hope this is something which might merit consideration as a feature. Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 16/03/2021 at 19:50 #137891 | |
Dionysusnu
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What would be the benefit of this, if as you say, it would act in the same way as SetDown?
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Extra timetable activities 16/03/2021 at 20:04 #137893 | |
Meld
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Drayton Park operational reasons as you know are for power supply change, done during a normal passenger stop, if there are any ECS they still have to stop regardless. From a timetabling point of view, a booked stop is a stop regardless of what reason the stop is for. Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Hap |
Extra timetable activities 16/03/2021 at 20:06 #137895 | |
Hap
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DavidSplett in post 137889 said:In the working timetable there are a few labels such as stops for operating reasons, stops for token exchange (etc), which don’t feature in the SimSig timetable editor.Hi DavidSplett. If you have a look at this link https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:ttuse:timing_codes It might not have OP or X etc but it covers some of the things that can be simulated within the TT that you have mentioned. I hope you find this a more informative answer... How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 16/03/2021 at 20:11 #137896 | |
jc92
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Dionysusnu in post 137891 said:What would be the benefit of this, if as you say, it would act in the same way as SetDown?The only thing I can think of is that set down isn't guaranteed, whereas OP could be added which is, combined with a dwell time or similar. The other advantage might be clarity, for instance 00X00 would confirm to the user the train is booked to pass another. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 16/03/2021 at 20:24 #137897 | |
DavidSplett
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Dionysusnu in post 137891 said:What would be the benefit of this, if as you say, it would act in the same way as SetDown?1) More realistic as per the real WTT. 2) Avoids essentially misusing "set down". 3) Guarantees the train will depart after a short dwell, which is preferable to using passing time as that would mean (AIUI) the train wouldn't actually stop if the signal is off. Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 16/03/2021 at 20:26 #137898 | |
DavidSplett
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Meld in post 137893 said:Drayton Park operational reasons as you know are for power supply change, done during a normal passenger stop, if there are any ECS they still have to stop regardless.I agree, however giving the reason for the stop (as the real WTT does) is more informative, and allows the situation to be more realistically handled. In the Drayton Park example, in practice no train is going to wait until the booked time - once the reason for the stop is complete, in this case the power change, the train will simply accept the signal and continue. The same would apply for something like a token exchange. Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 16/03/2021 at 22:52 #137905 | |
bill_gensheet
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DavidSplett in post 137898 said:Maybe just rethink the 'set down only' tick box as being 'depart after dwell time'. Then for your example at Drayton Park: Use WTT booked arrival and departure times (say 05:22 05:25H) Tick set down only Set a dwell of 3 mins for that call in the Drayton Park location timings tab If the train arrived early at 05:18, it will depart at 05:21. If the train arrived late at 05:28, it will depart at 05:31. Bill Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 16/03/2021 at 23:09 #137906 | |
postal
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bill_gensheet in post 137905 said:DavidSplett in post 137898 said:Has the coding for set-down only changed, then? My recollection is that set-down only allows the train to depart early but does not force it so that on random occasions even when the set-down only box is ticked the train still waits for booked time. There has been a suggestion that there should be an additional option to force a train to depart as soon as it is ready to avoid the embarrassing situation of something like a RR move with set-down only times being allowed to start early then sit down across the throat while waiting for booked time.Maybe just rethink the 'set down only' tick box as being 'depart after dwell time'. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 16/03/2021 at 23:30 #137907 | |
DavidSplett
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postal in post 137906 said:bill_gensheet in post 137905 said:I tend to be a little averse to using “set down” in timetables, as in general set down is provided in the WTT for a specific situation, generally those services in the late evening which are liable to being affected by engineering work. No doubt views differ in this, however my personal view is that it would be preferable to have an alternative option - especially if it would be more authentic to the real WTT.DavidSplett in post 137898 said:Has the coding for set-down only changed, then? My recollection is that set-down only allows the train to depart early but does not force it so that on random occasions even when the set-down only box is ticked the train still waits for booked time. There has been a suggestion that there should be an additional option to force a train to depart as soon as it is ready to avoid the embarrassing situation of something like a RR move with set-down only times being allowed to start early then sit down across the throat while waiting for booked time.Maybe just rethink the 'set down only' tick box as being 'depart after dwell time'. I can’t think readily think of a situation where a train would “stop for operational purposes” *and* need to wait time, hence it would essentially kill two birds with one stone if we had it as an activity. The three I have in mind which can be found in the WTT are “OP” - stops for operational purposes “t” - stops for token exchange purposes “S” - stops for railway personnel (normally a staff train, presumably) The first two could allow an early departure like the “set down only” currently does. The third would simply add realism in the timetable pop-up window in the same way that displaying allowances does. I’m less familiar with how the “stops to allow passing movement on single line” works, but this could certainly be included as well. Last edited: 16/03/2021 at 23:46 by DavidSplett Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 17/03/2021 at 00:20 #137908 | |
GeoffM
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DavidSplett in post 137907 said:I’m less familiar with how the “stops to allow passing movement on single line” works, but this could certainly be included as well.I believe that is simply a "by the way, this is why there's a longer than usual dwell time here" for scheduling purposes, and a "by the way, you're supposed to pass that other train here" to the signaller. But as far as the driver - and thus SimSig train - is concerned, it can just be a passing time (assuming no other reason to stop). Let's ignore old US paper "signaling" where the form says something along the line of "Wait at X for the passage of [lead] engine number Y". In this case it's an actual instruction with very bad consequences if ignored, like a signal indication. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 17/03/2021 at 00:39 #137909 | |
DavidSplett
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GeoffM in post 137908 said:DavidSplett in post 137907 said:That certainly figures. The other three I quoted are more relevant as things it’s useful for the signaller to know and/or affect the behaviour of train running.I’m less familiar with how the “stops to allow passing movement on single line” works, but this could certainly be included as well.I believe that is simply a "by the way, this is why there's a longer than usual dwell time here" for scheduling purposes, and a "by the way, you're supposed to pass that other train here" to the signaller. But as far as the driver - and thus SimSig train - is concerned, it can just be a passing time (assuming no other reason to stop). I’ve no idea how practicable it might be to add them retrospectively to SimSig, but thought it would be worth suggesting on the basis of “if don’t ask, don’t get”! :-) I hope it’s something that’s worth at least considering. Last edited: 17/03/2021 at 00:39 by DavidSplett Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 17/03/2021 at 11:41 #137917 | |
bill_gensheet
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postal in post 137906 said:bill_gensheet in post 137905 said:In testing the Edinburgh 1984 TT (where most up trains are set down at Haymarket, and quite a few run several minutes early) I did not observe any waiting for time. Nor did any of the light engine moves around Waverley or Townhill with SDO misbehave in the situation that you are concerned about.Has the coding for set-down only changed, then? My recollection is that set-down only allows the train to depart early but does not force it so that on random occasions even when the set-down only box is ticked the train still waits for booked time. There has been a suggestion that there should be an additional option to force a train to depart as soon as it is ready to avoid the embarrassing situation of something like a RR move with set-down only times being allowed to start early then sit down across the throat while waiting for booked time. Bill Last edited: 17/03/2021 at 11:42 by bill_gensheet Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 17/03/2021 at 14:57 #137919 | |
Dionysusnu
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jc92 in post 137896 said:Dionysusnu in post 137891 said:What would be the benefit of this, if as you say, it would act in the same way as SetDown?The only thing I can think of is that set down isn't guaranteed, whereas OP could be added which is, combined with a dwell time or similar. "SetDown isn't guaranteed" What are the conditions for it actually working or not? It seems very random when I play. Sometimes freight trains with SetDown will still wait until departure, blocking the line for a full hour because they were running early. So are there any rules for when it does/doesn't activate? Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 17/03/2021 at 18:39 #137920 | |
Jan
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Dionysusnu in post 137919 said:
I think it literally is random. Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 17/03/2021 at 19:01 #137921 | |
Dionysusnu
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Jan in post 137920 said:Dionysusnu in post 137919 said:In that case, I agree that there should be a way that a train will always depart when ready.What are the conditions for it actually working or not? It seems very random when I play.I think it literally is random. Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 17/03/2021 at 19:10 #137922 | |
GeoffM
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Dionysusnu in post 137921 said:Jan in post 137920 said:It's not binary. It's a range from the earliest possible departure (taking into account dwell time and suchlike) and its booked departure. Other factors affect it too, of course.Dionysusnu in post 137919 said:In that case, I agree that there should be a way that a train will always depart when ready.What are the conditions for it actually working or not? It seems very random when I play.I think it literally is random. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 17/03/2021 at 19:23 #137923 | |
Dionysusnu
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GeoffM in post 137922 said:Dionysusnu in post 137921 said:Jan in post 137920 said:It's not binary. It's a range from the earliest possible departure (taking into account dwell time and suchlike) and its booked departure. Other factors affect it too, of course.Dionysusnu in post 137919 said:In that case, I agree that there should be a way that a train will always depart when ready.What are the conditions for it actually working or not? It seems very random when I play.I think it literally is random. Thanks for the clarification, Geoff. In that case maybe it should be capped at 2 or 3 times the normal dwell time? It's unrealistic for a freight train to wait 2 hours when it's running early. And very frustrating when it does that while the tail overhangs a busy junction. Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 17/03/2021 at 19:38 #137924 | |
DavidSplett
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Dionysusnu in post 137923 said:GeoffM in post 137922 said:Personal view, however for me a separate option is preferable - it offers choice to the timetable writer, which in the end should contribute to making the finished product more realistic.Dionysusnu in post 137921 said:Jan in post 137920 said:It's not binary. It's a range from the earliest possible departure (taking into account dwell time and suchlike) and its booked departure. Other factors affect it too, of course.Dionysusnu in post 137919 said:In that case, I agree that there should be a way that a train will always depart when ready.What are the conditions for it actually working or not? It seems very random when I play.I think it literally is random. “Set down” works well for its intended purpose, but is often being used for purposes beyond that. Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 17/03/2021 at 22:36 #137925 | |
GeoffM
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DavidSplett in post 137924 said:Dionysusnu in post 137923 said:This. It was intended for one purpose, and has gone on to be used for other purposes. Capping is arbitrary and achieves little. As I believe someone mentioned earlier, this area is scheduled (sorry) for an review soon anyway.Personal view, however for me a separate option is preferable - it offers choice to the timetable writer, which in the end should contribute to making the finished product more realistic. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 18/03/2021 at 09:09 #137928 | |
kbarber
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Dionysusnu in post 137923 said:GeoffM in post 137922 said:On the contrary, if a freight is booked relief and the driver to take it forward is working in, it might well wait a couple of hours - might indeed end up well late if the incoming train is late (the more so if the forward driver is booked PNB before taking over).Dionysusnu in post 137921 said:Jan in post 137920 said:It's not binary. It's a range from the earliest possible departure (taking into account dwell time and suchlike) and its booked departure. Other factors affect it too, of course.Dionysusnu in post 137919 said:In that case, I agree that there should be a way that a train will always depart when ready.What are the conditions for it actually working or not? It seems very random when I play.I think it literally is random. Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 18/03/2021 at 10:17 #137929 | |
DavidSplett
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kbarber in post 137928 said:Dionysusnu in post 137923 said:Does the “crew change” activity not cover that scenario?GeoffM in post 137922 said:On the contrary, if a freight is booked relief and the driver to take it forward is working in, it might well wait a couple of hours - might indeed end up well late if the incoming train is late (the more so if the forward driver is booked PNB before taking over).Dionysusnu in post 137921 said:Jan in post 137920 said:It's not binary. It's a range from the earliest possible departure (taking into account dwell time and suchlike) and its booked departure. Other factors affect it too, of course.Dionysusnu in post 137919 said:In that case, I agree that there should be a way that a train will always depart when ready.What are the conditions for it actually working or not? It seems very random when I play.I think it literally is random. Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 18/03/2021 at 11:30 #137930 | |
bill_gensheet
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GeoffM in post 137925 said:
Is there any (intended) difference in SDO behaviour vs train class or other train type parameters ? Log in to reply |
Extra timetable activities 18/03/2021 at 12:23 #137931 | |
Meld
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DavidSplett in post 137929 said:kbarber in post 137928 said:Not really - take this example,Does the “crew change” activity not cover that scenario? 6M01 is booked crew change at 0230 by the driver that requires a PNB off 6S01 which arrives at 0115. This driver is then booked away at 0330 on 6S02, Normally 6M01 would be away on time. 6S01 is running 60 minutes late arriving at 0215 the earliest that 6M01 would be able to depart would be 0300 assuming that the PNB is 45 minutes. 6S02 is running 15 early so will arrive at 0315 this would still have to wait for the driver off 6M01 completing his break which didnt start till his relief arrived and on it goes So in SimSig terms 6M01 cannot leave until 45 minutes after 6S01 arrives. then you would have 6S02 would be 90/45 minutes after 6S01/6M01 arrives. We're now heading into Traincrew diagramming and thats not a place I would like to be heading. Timetabling can get complex enough at times without having to worry about delays for awaiting crew changes. Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Last edited: 18/03/2021 at 12:27 by Meld Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Stephen Fulcher |
Extra timetable activities 18/03/2021 at 12:40 #137932 | |
DavidSplett
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Meld in post 137931 said:DavidSplett in post 137929 said:It’s no different to the various possibilities which exist for passenger trains. On something like King’s Cross, if you have a late running Cambridge train there’s the option to turn it short, but only if it doesn’t have a crew relief at Cambridge. But if it does there could be a unit swap or something, so the train could still legitimately re-enter on time for its return trip. As you say, delving too much into crewing is simply going to get too complicated.kbarber in post 137928 said:Not really - take this example,Does the “crew change” activity not cover that scenario? However none of this, as I see it, precludes is having the option of something which guarantees a train will leave a location early. Having it as an option is an extra tool for timetable writers attempting to make something perform as realistically as we can get it. There would of course be no compulsion to use it. Log in to reply |