Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line

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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 27/08/2021 at 16:25 #141386
bugsy
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Online 		Just an observation this.

Train 7C29’s timetable has a stop in the Woodborough DGL with a departure time of 09:01. I can see the logic in this because it could delay the following Class 1 before reaching East Somerset Jn.
However, it stops in the siding with the rear end fouling the Main line and then says that it’s “waiting right-away”. Is there a reason for this stop because if not, I don’t see the point of it.
Of course, I have the option of sending the train non-stop through this location and think that’s what I’ll do in a rerun.

I have attached a save for those who might be interested even though I don’t think it’s necessary as this isn’t something that needs investigation.
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 27/08/2021 at 16:59 #141387
Stephen Fulcher
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2088 posts 		Two possibilities:

1. The train length is wrong.
2. The loop length is wrong.

I do not know which is correct.

My recommendation would be to tell the driver his next location is the one after Woodborough Loop and give him the road out to clear the line.
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 27/08/2021 at 18:00 #141388
lazzer
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636 posts 		Stephen Fulcher in post 141387 said:
Two possibilities:

1. The train length is wrong.
2. The loop length is wrong.

I do not know which is correct.

My recommendation would be to tell the driver his next location is the one after Woodborough Loop and give him the road out to clear the line.
The length of the Woodborough DGL is 640m. The train is 715m. So the timetable is wrong.

You could shorten the train to 600m or so, and that may clear the track circuit in rear. I say "may" because I'm convinced that for me, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
Last edited: 27/08/2021 at 18:02 by lazzer
Reason: None given
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 27/08/2021 at 18:22 #141389
bugsy
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Online 		Thanks for your two suggestions above.
In this particular instance I let the train carry on and diverted it via Westbury station. I don't think that the class 1 was delayed by very much.

I now keep a watch in case this sort of thing lloks like happening again.
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 27/08/2021 at 18:37 #141390
lazzer
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636 posts 		bugsy in post 141389 said:
Thanks for your two suggestions above.
In this particular instance I let the train carry on and diverted it via Westbury station. I don't think that the class 1 was delayed by very much.

I now keep a watch in case this sort of thing lloks like happening again.
A good idea might be to edit the train's timetable, change the train's length, and then re-save the TT for the next time you play.
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 27/08/2021 at 20:18 #141391
bugsy
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Online 		lazzer in post 141390 said:
A good idea might be to edit the train's timetable, change the train's length, and then re-save the TT for the next time you play.
You're probably right. I'll remember that and also do it for any other trains that may have the same problem, if there are any.
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 27/08/2021 at 21:07 #141392
postal
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5269 posts 		Just an observation this.

I know the information is available to anyone who opens your uploaded save but it would short-circuit things if you could include some information about which TT is causing you problems in your original post to make it easier for anyone that may want to help.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 27/08/2021 at 21:08 by postal
Reason: None given
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 27/08/2021 at 22:33 #141393
Soton_Speed
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285 posts 		bugsy in post 141391 said:
lazzer in post 141390 said:
A good idea might be to edit the train's timetable, change the train's length, and then re-save the TT for the next time you play.
You're probably right. I'll remember that and also do it for any other trains that may have the same problem, if there are any.
From the saved game TT Notes -

Quote:
Be careful with the Mendip/FLHH Jumbos. These are now run in excess of 700m. THEY DO NOT FIT in the Loops so some form of regulation is required.
Guess the WTT hadn't been altered to reflect this.
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 28/08/2021 at 07:33 #141394
kbarber
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1764 posts 		Soton_Speed in post 141393 said:
bugsy in post 141391 said:
lazzer in post 141390 said:
A good idea might be to edit the train's timetable, change the train's length, and then re-save the TT for the next time you play.
You're probably right. I'll remember that and also do it for any other trains that may have the same problem, if there are any.
From the saved game TT Notes -

Quote:
Be careful with the Mendip/FLHH Jumbos. These are now run in excess of 700m. THEY DO NOT FIT in the Loops so some form of regulation is required.
Guess the WTT hadn't been altered to reflect this.
I wonder if this is one of those instances where the bobby has to make their own decisions, rather than have everything set out in the WTT. I recall, when I was in the Brent, 6M94 (I think it was) to Bescot was booked a maximum 60SLU but we often asked - and got - Control authority to run it at 80. Boxes on line of route would be advised it was overlength and it was left to them to sort it out.
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 28/08/2021 at 08:33 #141395
geswedey
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207 posts 		Used to be special bell codes for overlength Freightliners, which reminds me that there was only one question in my Signallers and Guards bi-annual exam back in the early nineties that I didn't know the answer to was about overlength bell codes, mind you I would probably have been stumped by out of gauge bell codes as well.
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 29/08/2021 at 09:44 #141407
bugsy
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Online 		postal in post 141392 said:
Just an observation this.

I know the information is available to anyone who opens your uploaded save but it would short-circuit things if you could include some information about which TT is causing you problems in your original post to make it easier for anyone that may want to help.
The timetable is WESTBURY 130220 PLUS which I agree I should have said in the first post.
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 29/08/2021 at 12:29 #141408
kbarber
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1764 posts 		geswedey in post 141395 said:
Used to be special bell codes for overlength Freightliners, which reminds me that there was only one question in my Signallers and Guards bi-annual exam back in the early nineties that I didn't know the answer to was about overlength bell codes, mind you I would probably have been stumped by out of gauge bell codes as well.
Interestingly, the LM Region would have nothing to do with overlength bell codes.
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 03/09/2021 at 16:47 #141437
Chrisrail
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384 posts 		The Freight lengths were what actually ran on the Day
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 03/09/2021 at 16:48 #141438
Chrisrail
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384 posts 		The Freight lengths were what actually ran on the Day
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 04/09/2021 at 21:04 #141439
KymriskaDraken
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963 posts 		kbarber in post 141394 said:
Soton_Speed in post 141393 said:
bugsy in post 141391 said:
lazzer in post 141390 said:
A good idea might be to edit the train's timetable, change the train's length, and then re-save the TT for the next time you play.
You're probably right. I'll remember that and also do it for any other trains that may have the same problem, if there are any.
From the saved game TT Notes -

Quote:
Be careful with the Mendip/FLHH Jumbos. These are now run in excess of 700m. THEY DO NOT FIT in the Loops so some form of regulation is required.
Guess the WTT hadn't been altered to reflect this.
I wonder if this is one of those instances where the bobby has to make their own decisions, rather than have everything set out in the WTT. I recall, when I was in the Brent, 6M94 (I think it was) to Bescot was booked a maximum 60SLU but we often asked - and got - Control authority to run it at 80. Boxes on line of route would be advised it was overlength and it was left to them to sort it out.
At Little Mill we had something in the Footnotes to say that 4S81 (I think it was) was to be considered to have XX SLUs unless informed to the contrary. That meant it would fit at Panteg but not anywhere else before Hereford. It was a great way of achieving some very dodgy margins.

Kev
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 05/09/2021 at 11:26 #141443
bugsy
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Online 		Chrisrail in post 141438 said:
The Freight lengths were what actually ran on the Day
So the signallers weren't advised that this particular, or any other trains, were overlength then?
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 05/09/2021 at 12:13 #141444
JamesN
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1611 posts 		bugsy in post 141443 said:
Chrisrail in post 141438 said:
The Freight lengths were what actually ran on the Day
So the signallers weren't advised that this particular, or any other trains, were overlength then?
They almost certainly were.

There is a “maximum” length trains can run over the route - but the freight operator can request to NR to run overlength. If/When that request is granted by the train running controller, they will contact the signallers enroute to advise train is running overlength, and the signaller then has to manage it accordingly.

That’s something that isn’t easily replicated in SimSig.

There’s two prevailing schools of thought amongst timetable writers of SimSig - one where they try to replicate/transcribe the timetable verbatim “warts and all” - and it’s up to the SimSignaller to work round as real signallers would. The downside to that is that SimSig doesn’t offer some of the support real signallers get in dealing with these issues from control and the like.

The other school of thought sees timetable writers write the workarounds into the timetable, making a more playable experience. That might be by adjusting train lengths or changing platform numbers to resolve clashes. The evident downside to that is that it’s marginally less realistic, and offers less of an on-the-fly challenge.

Chris would seem to be in the former camp with this TT.
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 05/09/2021 at 13:40 #141445
bill_gensheet
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1431 posts
Online 		Some information can be conveyed by (mis)using decisions as they provide a opo up message when made.
So a 'short' and a 'long' train with a choice and if ';ong' is chien you get a :
'Route control advise 6K42 is running overlength at xxx m / SLU'

I have suggested before a new timetable activity of 'show message' that would be simpler and not involve abuse of the decision feature.
Thought I put it on Mantis.... cannot find it there now

Bill
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 05/09/2021 at 15:40 #141447
ambergatesm
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36 posts 		Not everybody who uses Sim-Sig is a signaller or railway professional. Users have different skill levels. I am a railway enthusiast with a self acquired knowledge of railway operations. I have learnt a great deal about signalling operations by using Sim-Sig. Less experienced professional signallers usually have the benefit of assistance from more experienced colleagues. Any features that assists less skilled single players to enjoy Sim-Sig must be beneficial.
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 05/09/2021 at 17:15 #141448
bugsy
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1795 posts
Online 		Woodborough DGL
JamesN in post 141444 said:


...... There’s two prevailing schools of thought amongst timetable writers of SimSig - one where they try to replicate/transcribe the timetable verbatim “warts and all” - and it’s up to the SimSignaller to work round as real signallers would. The downside to that is that SimSig doesn’t offer some of the support real signallers get in dealing with these issues from control and the like.

The other school of thought sees timetable writers write the workarounds into the timetable, making a more playable experience. That might be by adjusting train lengths or changing platform numbers to resolve clashes. The evident downside to that is that it’s marginally less realistic, and offers less of an on-the-fly challenge.

Chris would seem to be in the former camp with this TT.
I am also in the former camp as I think that as much realism as possible is what I prefer.

In this particular timetable (Westbury 130220 Plus), I noticed that in the description of the timetable there is a reference to the Mendip/FLHH Jumbos being 700m long and therefore not fitting into the loops and requiring some form of regulation. I had forgotten this by the time 7C29 got to Woodborough DGL. Had I remembered, I would have kept the train on the main line bypassing the loop.
Won't forget the next one!
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Freight in Woodborough DGL blocks Main Line 05/09/2021 at 17:52 #141449
jc92
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3701 posts 		JamesN in post 141444 said:
bugsy in post 141443 said:
Chrisrail in post 141438 said:
The Freight lengths were what actually ran on the Day
So the signallers weren't advised that this particular, or any other trains, were overlength then?
They almost certainly were.

There is a “maximum” length trains can run over the route - but the freight operator can request to NR to run overlength. If/When that request is granted by the train running controller, they will contact the signallers enroute to advise train is running overlength, and the signaller then has to manage it accordingly.

That’s something that isn’t easily replicated in SimSig.

There’s two prevailing schools of thought amongst timetable writers of SimSig - one where they try to replicate/transcribe the timetable verbatim “warts and all” - and it’s up to the SimSignaller to work round as real signallers would. The downside to that is that SimSig doesn’t offer some of the support real signallers get in dealing with these issues from control and the like.

The other school of thought sees timetable writers write the workarounds into the timetable, making a more playable experience. That might be by adjusting train lengths or changing platform numbers to resolve clashes. The evident downside to that is that it’s marginally less realistic, and offers less of an on-the-fly challenge.

Chris would seem to be in the former camp with this TT.
Simple solution is to add a note to the timetable saying overlength train, which then appears on the notes row in bold.
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