Crossover pointing the wrong way at Littleton Colly?

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Crossover pointing the wrong way at Littleton Colly? 07/01/2022 at 22:34 #143403
lukebriner
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56 posts 		There doesn't seem to be any description of the Littleton colliery in the manual for WV but I was trying to follow advice to reverse a LE here to get to Four Ashes without annoying Stafford #4!

The only Littleton location I can validate from Bushbury is LC3, which appears to be the exit points in the up direction. However, when trying to work this out, I opened the signal plans for WV on the manual page and noticed that crossover at the south end in both the earlier and the later era (in the manuals) show the crossover allowing trains to cross from down to up, which would permit a reverse onto the up line but in the simulation itself, the crossover is reversed and since there is no location for SD4 201 in the timetable, I cannot send a train there to then reverse between the lines.

This looks like some kind of bug but for now I will just send the loco to Stafford and have it reappear. This will affect the timings compared to the WTT but I have probably taken enough liberties already to not be a problem.
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Crossover pointing the wrong way at Littleton Colly? 07/01/2022 at 22:40 #143404
TUT
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545 posts 		A main to main facing crossover would be unusual enough, but worked from a ground frame?

Edit: The crossover in question was certainly trailing when the box opened and I find it extraordinarily unlikely it was relaid as a facing crossover. It seems likely that an error has been corrected at some point, although I can't find any mention in the version history.
Last edited: 07/01/2022 at 22:48 by TUT
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Crossover pointing the wrong way at Littleton Colly? 07/01/2022 at 22:59 #143405
lukebriner
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56 posts 		Thank TUT. The lever frame lacks FPLs so it seems likely that it should always have been trailing and the mistake is simply in the original screenshot as you mentioned.

So does that mean that the timetable validation should permit a down train to go from Bushbury Jn to SD4 201 so that it can then reverse at the north end of the colliery and across the single slip (which the points/signals seem capable of)? It also sounds like it shouldn't permit Bushbury Jn to Littleton LC3, which doesn't seem possible.
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Crossover pointing the wrong way at Littleton Colly? 08/01/2022 at 00:58 #143407
GeoffM
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6380 posts 		Looks like the sim point orientation is correct but the ground frame graphic is not. I had a quick look at the locations in the sim for Littleton and it looks like there is a comprehensive set of paths between pairs of locations, though let me know if anything is missing.

I'm not sure if we had this diagram when the sim was provided. We may have too many (hand)signals.
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Crossover pointing the wrong way at Littleton Colly? 08/01/2022 at 12:54 #143409
lukebriner
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56 posts 		Hi Geoff, the original challenge was trying to timetable a down train entering Four Ashes. It looks like there used to be a crossover at some point but not by 1987, which is the earlier era on this simulation.

Cleaner suggested instead to reverse at Littleton Colly and head back up to Four Ashes, which is what prompted this question. There was a slight confusion on my part because the signals and points at Littleton don't match e.g. the Location LC3 is the signal LC3 but this protects points LC1. Once I understood that, I tried to timetable a train Busbury - LC3 - LC4 - up but this didn't work as expected (although it might be correct as per prototype) and was all-in-all too slow to be useable on such a busy line simply to reverse, which is fine, I will just reverse off-sim at Stafford.

1) The southern crossover doesn't seem useable for reversing since there is no TT location for LC5, instead we have to use the north crossover at LC3, which adds most of the issues below.
2) The ground frame takes 3 minutes to release blocking both lines, including setting the signal WN208 to danger so we have to wait for our reversing train to pass WN208 and then free the GF and then wait 3 minutes.
3) On LC3 reverse, the train doesn't move away even with LC3 set to proceed, it has to wait to obtain authority as well which means either leaving the phone ringing (if they ring when you are not ready) or sending them away for 2 minutes which adds to the blocking time
4) Even though I had LC3 to LC4 in the timetable, the train won't pass over the single slip onto the up stour but stops at the points to require them set into the colliery, which adds even more time and requires points LC3 set as well as the signal LC1 set to proceed.

Not sure any of these are problems/bugs, probably just the reality of a little used ground frame?
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Crossover pointing the wrong way at Littleton Colly? 08/01/2022 at 14:03 #143413
bill_gensheet
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1432 posts
Online 		Test timetable attached to which the trains below refer.
Trains other than 0D04 and 6P05 work fine

From this I note:

Bug with points 1A/1B in that the slip on the up line is never moved to reverse despite the graphic.
Result 0D04 gets stuck with 'points set against train' when it should run back to Wolverhampton - the OP's original issue.
'0D04.ssg'

Result 6P05 proceeds wrong line to Stafford - frame has levers 1, 2, 9 reverse.
'6P05.ssg'

0D04 Works using points 4A/4B (levers 5, 8, 10 reverse)

No way to timetable a reversal at LC5
Down to colliery only works via LC3 (as per 6D01 which works fine)

Suggest adding location for LC5(rev), pathed to both LC4 rev and up line.
Could this then be set up to prevent the external berths to Stafford populating ?

Layout seems excessive, I wonder what extra movements justified it, run rounds on the main lines ?

Identical Mantis to follow
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The following user said thank you: lukebriner
Crossover pointing the wrong way at Littleton Colly? 08/01/2022 at 15:52 #143414
bill_gensheet
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1432 posts
Online 		Mantis 35461
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Crossover pointing the wrong way at Littleton Colly? 30/01/2022 at 18:21 #144924
bill_gensheet
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1432 posts
Online 		GeoffM in post 143407 said:

I'm not sure if we had this diagram when the sim was provided. We may have too many (hand)signals.

That appears to be the 1964 'Wolverhampton PSB comissioning' diagram, and I wonder if it was complete?

Attached below images I have restored from RMWeb postings by 'LNERGE' in the link below.
Likely mid/late 1980's.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/61850-boscomoor-sidings-and-the-littleton-colliery-branch-staffordshire/page/3/

Of course the sim is 'Wolverhampton' not 'Littleton Colliery SF' so some of the 12 active levers are irrelevant, but both crossovers were signalled.

Bill
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Last edited: 30/01/2022 at 19:17 by bill_gensheet
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Crossover pointing the wrong way at Littleton Colly? 01/02/2022 at 07:51 #144956
8stewartt
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33 posts 		Soon to be going back in in some form as a north facing connection to facilitate the new logistics site there. Doesn't make much sense when it wont be able to accept anything from Felixstowe/Southampton without a run round somewhere though....
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