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| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 09/06/2022 at 09:27 #146771 | |
HST125Scorton
1191 posts |
Recently I have been thinking about how SimSig could engage with general users about upcoming and in final phrases of new simulations. Mainly to try and avoid those question of when certain simulations are been released Example: ‘When is Crewe coming out?’. Many may know that Bristol, Crewe & Preston are in development, I was involved in Preston 2018-2022 era development in collecting and sharing information for the resignalling and electrification of the Blackpool North Line and Euxton Jn/Bolton Corridor to the active developer and testing the next batch of updates. Unfortunately, development of this sim grinded to a hold and I was removed as tester. Sadly, there has been no update to where it stands and would be a shame to loose what was going to be a excellent Sim with plenty of eras. So, my suggestion is maybe have a fortnightly/monthly update on active developments. I know some information isn’t given out as to surprise many SimSiggers on the site with a new simulation out the blue which indeed is very good. But for those that know what’s already in active development it an idea would be to update us. I also wanting to see what others might think about this and where it could lead to, many be a fortnightly to monthly update on how things are going under testing? As this is mainly a suggestion I'm happy with any result where it stays as current or little update every now and then. Plenty of hours goes into creating a new simulation and related timetables and I appreciate the hard work that goes on to make these Simulations for all of us to enjoy. Aaron (AJRO) | Timetable Writer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: whatlep, elltrain3, bossman, Guts, dhouk |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 09/06/2022 at 11:25 #146772 | |
Chromatix
190 posts |
I think a regular small publication to general users is a good idea. It's the sort of thing that can be integrated into the Loader, displaying a paragraph or two about recent and upcoming changes to both the Loader itself and current/future sims. I would recommend writing these updates in prose for a non-technical audience, rather than as a list of Mantis bug numbers and titles, or similar. Log in to reply |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 09/06/2022 at 13:16 #146773 | |
jc92
3685 posts |
Fortnightly, and even monthly would be pretty boring to be honest unless you want a micro break down of every resolved ticket, which is excessive for no real benefit. I can think of at least one in development sim which had had no discernable "progress" for several months as its being picked apart in alpha testing before any sizable progress is made. An update would likely just say "in Alpha" for months which gives a false impression its stalled, when really it's progressing well. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 09/06/2022 at 14:22 #146774 | |
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Chromatix
190 posts |
So you point out that it's a big project that will take some time to complete, and that you're currently going over it in intricate detail to make sure it'll work properly. You don't have to get into technicalities, just point out the essential facts. If there's nothing new to report that a general user would be interested in, just leave the relevant text alone. Meanwhile, in the same text box you can have a paragraph announcing that an update to Junction X sim fixes ARS problems, and that one of the default timetables for some other sim was updated to make run-round operations at Yard Y run more smoothly. Log in to reply |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 09/06/2022 at 17:08 #146776 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
It’s an interesting discussion point. Personally (And I firmly take my administrative hat off here) I feel SimSig has a come a long way since I first joined the community in 2008 where discussion of what was in development, or any updates about simulations in development was frowned upon and the mantra was very much “It’ll be ready when it’s ready”, and I wouldn’t want to see us head back towards that model. Placing the aforementioned hat back on, I’m not entirely sure a fortnightly or even monthly update would be that exciting; that said perhaps I’m jaded by dealing with development and testing most of the time, and some of what we do in the background might have a wider appeal to everyone. Something closer to quarterly might work well, and it’d be good to get wider opinions from everyone on that, and what they might like to see in it. Addressing the opening post, and I believe I’ve said it elsewhere the publicly announced projects we are actively working on are Doncaster Station, Crewe and Bristol, anything else is a bonus 
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: elltrain3, HST125Scorton |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 09/06/2022 at 18:40 #146777 | |
postal
5264 posts |
While being a bit more open is probably a good thing, it does involve a level of responsibility from all the members of the community. It will probably not go down too well with developers and testers who are working hard in the background if something gets a "still under development" tag for a couple of reports and someone chips in with "any idea when it will be ready"?
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 09/06/2022 at 18:41 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 09/06/2022 at 18:59 #146778 | |
MrSuttonmann
265 posts |
headshot119 in post 146776 said:...any updates about simulations in development was frowned upon and the mantra was very much “It’ll be ready when it’s ready”, and I wouldn’t want to see us head back towards that model.I am also very glad to see the back of this attitude. It was extremely dismissive and felt entirely unfriendly and unwelcoming, especially when directed at the people who ultimately would be buying said software. As a developer myself, I do see the opposite side of being asked multiple times over and over again when a product might be ready or what its current state is, but there are ways of mitigating that such as publishing a roadmap or holding open betas and making people feel part of the process. If people knew how much went into making a simulation and how long roughly each part might take, they might be a bit more patient. It's one thing to be secretive about your future development, but an entirely different thing to shun and alienate your userbase. (Formerly known as manadude2) Log in to reply The following users said thank you: bri2808, elltrain3, dhouk, Soton_Speed, bossman, Guts |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 10/06/2022 at 08:12 #146780 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
Personal opinion: quarterly sounds about right. Whether it should appear in the Loader I'm not so sure; website might be better. As to content, I don't see any reason to be more detailed than something along the lines of 'In development, timescale uncertain' or perhaps 'In beta, showstopper found, release timescale likely to be delayed at least 3 months'. As for timescales, how about 'Alpha testing estimated Summer 2023'. (Anyone who reads Modern Railways will, of course, factor in Informed Sources' Third law: ‘Always mistrust schedules based on the seasons', but that's OK, this is only a rough guide after all.)
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| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 10/06/2022 at 10:05 #146782 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
postal in post 146777 said:While being a bit more open is probably a good thing, it does involve a level of responsibility from all the members of the community. It will probably not go down too well with developers and testers who are working hard in the background if something gets a "still under development" tag for a couple of reports and someone chips in with "any idea when it will be ready"?It should also be bourn in mind that as the developers and testers are not 'staff' where it is expected to get 35 hours a week from them. So even if it was known how many man-hours are needed to finish a given sim (Manadudes' point), it is not simply a case of assuming n people x 35 hours a week or whatever. SimSig comes behind the day job and 'real life' stuff even down to walking the dog and mowing the lawn. Bill Log in to reply The following user said thank you: whatlep |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 10/06/2022 at 11:11 #146783 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
I can see the merit in the argument for updates where the fact of the development of a sim has been officially announced; otherwise why announce. But I think it's for individual developers to decide if they wish their work in progress to be announced and then keep updating that announcement. As Bill intimates I could have announced a new sim as almost ready several years ago but for various reasons, it's had to take a back seat for the past goodness knows how long. I'd hate to have to keep announcing that and possibly, ultimately, that it's been abandoned (it hasn't). Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 10/06/2022 at 21:15 #146788 | |
bugsy
1766 posts |
I rather like the suggestion made by Keith Barber but would prefer bi-monthly updates because I think that with quarterly updates they would be too far apart.
Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 12/06/2022 at 16:50 #146793 | |
DaveHarries
1285 posts |
I can see why some might want the development update idea as it is always nice to know what is coming. On the other hand, however, I like the element of surprise. I look forward to seeing if anything comes out for the Manchester Meet. Dave Log in to reply |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 13/06/2022 at 11:10 #146794 | |
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bugsy
1766 posts |
DaveHarries in post 146793 said:I can see why some might want the development update idea as it is always nice to know what is coming. On the other hand, however, I like the element of surprise. I look forward to seeing if anything comes out for the Manchester Meet.My bet would be on Crewe
Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 13/06/2022 at 11:27 #146795 | |
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DaveHarries
1285 posts |
bugsy in post 146794 said:My bet would be on Crewe :) I am thinking likewise. If the new Crewe sim was used then perhaps a chain involving Staffordshire and Warrington for good measure? The appearence of Crewe would also tick one item off my most wanted list. Dave Last edited: 13/06/2022 at 11:28 by DaveHarries Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 13/06/2022 at 16:37 #146797 | |
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jc92
3685 posts |
When in Manchester, why not just run a Manchester chain (Piccadilly, East, North, Hunts Cross and Stockport)
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 14/06/2022 at 23:45 #146815 | |
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304033
57 posts |
IMO - Quarterly update. Doesnt need to be a 'publication', just a simple Future Sims page on the site... and its up to the individual developers whether or not they want their Sim's included on this. However, I dont see this happening at all. Someone mentioned the old dismissive mantra of "It'll be ready when its ready" > IMO this 'attitude' hasnt gone away but softened a little as SimSig has grown larger. Moreover, the silence on this subject from the powers that be is all too apparent but unsurprising. I'll await a Facebook post about this 'comment' on a certain persons Facebook page and the other cronies chiming in... Unless he has learnt not to post everything as a Public post?! Log in to reply |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 15/06/2022 at 08:21 #146817 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
304033 in post 146815 said:IMO - Quarterly update.I feel this is rather uncalled for. "It'll be ready when it's ready" emerged, as I understand it, when sims were largely free and developers had to prioritise lots of other things (not excluding the unfortunate necessity of earning a living). Even now, unless I'm much mistaken, the volume of sales couldn't possibly earn anybody enough to exist on, ergo Simsig still needs to take second place in most developers' lives. So people are becoming more ready to make commitments to release timescales, but without a large team of full-time staff even those commitments have to be provisional. The change is all to the good, this response to it rather ungenerous. In a world where everything is presented (at least in the news media) as a full-scale argument (if not the prelude to war), it seems listening has rather gone out of fashion. But if we do listen, surprising things happen (I can say that with confidence because it's how I make my living these days). (Try searching for some of Maxand's threads and the responses to them to see what I mean.) To listen means not joining in the discussion prematurely. The 'powers that be' appear, to me, to be doing rather a good job of listening. 304033: you might find yourself rather surprised when the discussion concludes. Not that the outcome will necessarily be announced (lots of things here happen without fanfare, just like a quick move that comes off in a busy signalbox). Nor that it will necessarily be the outcome you (or I for that matter) would like to see. But my experience (and I've been hanging around this forum a fair while now) is that discussions like this don't go unnoticed. I understand peoples' frustration when things take forever. Hell, I've been a station supervisor (Barking, 1981 - 1983 for the record) and I know how frustrated people get when a minor failure makes trains just a few minutes late. But having a go at people can't and won't change the realities of life. It will, though - and not surprisingly - make them less willing to put themselves out in the future. If that's the outcome, you'll have only yourself to blame. My 2p worth. Mods, feel free to remove my post if you feel it's inappropriate. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Meld, elltrain3, HST125Scorton, dhouk, postal, pedroathome, bugsy, Hap, GeoffM, Guts |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 15/06/2022 at 10:46 #146818 | |
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HST125Scorton
1191 posts |
Having had a weekend of hell with a small house fire and other family issues. Then working tirelessly to provide new timetables for all of us via user contributions. I’ve finally got round to having a look at the replies. As I mentioned in the first post this was more of a suggestion and a general sensible discussion. Feedback is always good, and with what has been mentioned leaving it as it is seems to be the idea. Yes maybe quarterly updates are sensible but that’s then down to whether the developer would like to share what is been developed simulation wise. Please folks this is general sensible discussions none argumentative approach. If mods/admins want to lock this thread then that is fine. Aaron (AJRO) | Timetable Writer Last edited: 15/06/2022 at 10:47 by HST125Scorton Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 15/06/2022 at 20:14 #146822 | |
i26
308 posts |
HST125Scorton in post 146818 said:Having had a weekend of hell with a small house fire and other family issues. Then working tirelessly to provide new timetables for all of us via user contributions. I’ve finally got round to having a look at the replies. Sorry to hear about the fire. Hope there was no damage or anyone injured. 
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| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 15/06/2022 at 21:39 #146825 | |
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DaveHarries
1285 posts |
i26 in post 146822 said:Sorry to hear about the fire. Hope there was no damage or anyone injured. Likewise. Dave Log in to reply |
| Development Simulation Updates Suggestion 16/06/2022 at 10:35 #146832 | |
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HST125Scorton
1191 posts |
i26 in post 146822 said:HST125Scorton in post 146818 said:Everyone all safe no injuries. Just one room part damaged and burnt out garage. With fast quick action it was contained.Having had a weekend of hell with a small house fire and other family issues. Then working tirelessly to provide new timetables for all of us via user contributions. I’ve finally got round to having a look at the replies. Aaron (AJRO) | Timetable Writer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: i26, flabberdacks |