Port Talbot area- former freight flows

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Port Talbot area- former freight flows 06/01/2023 at 16:24 #150055
Steamer
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3997 posts 		I'm toying with the idea of creating a fictional loco-hauled WTT for Port Talbot, in a similar vein to my NEScot one.

Does anyone know what the typical freight flows were around the area? For example, Llandarcy refinery- was that fed from Milford Haven? Or somewhere else? What were all the sidings just east of Llanelli used for?

The idea (if I decide to go for it) is to create something that's vaguely plausible using the track layout simulated; I'm not going to be reproducing a specific era or getting too hung up on the exact details of historical workings.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Port Talbot area- former freight flows 06/01/2023 at 16:43 #150056
welshdave257
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42 posts 		Regarding the sidings at Llanelli, there used to be a goods shed there, so I'm assuming it had something to do with that. The Goods Shed was set on fire during the Llanelli Railway Riots in 1911. I'm from Llanelli, but haven't been down that way for a while. Last time I was there, a Pacer unit was stabled there. Some ruins of buildings were in the area near the sidings, not sure if it was the original goods shed. Network Rail also has their Llanelli depot in that general area.

Can't tell you specifically about freight traffic except the usual runs through by freight coming to and from Robeston. Oh and of course, Trostre works had a lot more traffic go to and from it I believe.
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Port Talbot area- former freight flows 06/01/2023 at 19:03 #150060
jc92
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3701 posts 		Margam Yard fulfilled the same purpose it does today - Coal and steel traffic for Port Talbot Steelworks, with a full loco depot as well. Imported iron ore traffic ran from Port Talbot Docks to Llanwern exchange using pairs of 56s/37s due to the gradient encountered on stormy bank.

Onllwyn had/has a Colliery and Washery and received coal from the East midlands (seem to recall a daily as required working from worksop) as well as dispatched ready product to other locations.

Briton Ferry handled handled Chemical traffic for Baglan bay BP. It also handled incoming MGR Coal traffic (not sure what for). not sure if any was sourced locally but there was a WO Toton - Briton and back working as at 1992.

Coal traffic was handled at Maesteg and Garw although the sim isn't really suitable for handling either. the traffic was mostly worked to Margam for remarshalling.

there was coal traffic up the central wales to Pantyfnnon, worked forwards to Gwan-cae-Gurwen Colliery.

Off sim, but still relevant is Coedbach washery and Cwmmawr Colliery, accessed off a branch at Kidwelly. these were mostly Speedlink Coal Network, connecting with the network at East Usk.

Trostre produced steel traffic which was/is tripped to Margam for remarshalling or receipt into Port Talbot. There is also a scrap flow to Margam using SSAs, however I don't know if thats always been the case.

Swansea Docks/Burrows was a much busier location but I don't know what was handled.

Regarding Llanelli, My Quail dated 1989 shows the yard, but with no active user or facilities at that time.

My WTTs are currently stored so I can't give more accurate info on days of the week or frequencies of service.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Port Talbot area- former freight flows 06/01/2023 at 20:41 #150062
Andy174
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95 posts 		Oil trains from Llandarcy went far & wide, there were flows to Grain in Kent/Rowley Regis in the West Mids. I would presume that these were block trains. Perhaps best to obtain a WTT relevant to the time period you want to write a TT for to get a general idea of the traffic flows?
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Port Talbot area- former freight flows 07/01/2023 at 13:28 #150073
Andy174
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95 posts 		Was also goinng to say that it would be great to see a TT for this sim as you've indicated, bit of a neglected sim in the TT area despite it having plenty of ground frames/sidings etc but from what I understand its not as per the track layout in the 80's etc to enable a direct representation of the traffic flows.. Good luck in compiling one, look forward to using it.
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Port Talbot area- former freight flows 07/01/2023 at 23:45 #150082
bill_gensheet
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1432 posts
Online 		1975 MR conditional
Droitwich (no mandatory)
6M83 D1150 2310 SX Llandeilo Jn - Langley Green (assume loaded)
6M80 D1150 0145 MO Llandeilo Jn - Langley Green (assume loaded)
6M47 D 810 0245 MX Llandarcy - Rowley Regis (assume loaded) 2x37
6M80 / 6M47 same path
6M82 D1100 0345 Llandeilo Jn - Langley Green

6V91 ***** 0650 Langley Green - Llandeilo Jn (empty)
6V22 D 615 1030 MX Rowley Regis - Llandarcy (Margam SO) (empty) 1x37
6V24 D 615 1330 SX Rowley Regis - Llandarcy (empty) 1x37
6V15 D1025 1440 Langley Green - Llandeilo Jn (empty)

Craven Arms
6M43 D 923 WO 2257 Margam - Stanlow (empty)
6M43 D 923 SO 0710 Llanwern - Stanlow (empty)
6M84 D 923 SX 0550 Margam - Bolton
6S43 D 760 0623 Margam - Dalzell (empty)
6S42 D 860 MTH 1320 Herbrandston - Polmadie
6M56 D 860 MO 1635 Waterston - Plumpton Jn
2045 D1070 SO Baglan Bay - Runcorn (empty)

6V71 D 912 Stanlow - Llanwern MThF / Margam TO
6V17 D 912 0045 WO / SO Polmadie - Herbrandston
6V18 D 912 0810 MO Holyhead - Herbrandston
6V76 D1039 0629 SX Ravenscraig - Margam
6V32 D1100 1623 Sandbach - Baglan Bay (Salt)
8V06 ***** 1633 TThO Grange - Margam
6V78 D1070 1740 MTh Runcorn / 1725 TW Middlewich - Baglan Bay also SO
6V75 D1070 FSX 1810 Oakleigh / 1845 Sandbach Baglan Bay
6V79 D1000 1740 TO Plumpton Jn - Waterston (empty)
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Port Talbot area- former freight flows 09/01/2023 at 18:08 #150093
Steamer
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3997 posts 		Thanks for all the responses, they've certainly helped me form some ideas for workings. From the sounds of it, the bulk of steel and coal traffic ran to or via Margam yard.

jc92 in post 150060 said:

Onllwyn had/has a Colliery and Washery and received coal from the East midlands (seem to recall a daily as required working from worksop) as well as dispatched ready product to other locations.
Speaking generally, what did the washery do? I'm a bit surprised that it received coal from the East Midlands, surely there'd be enough coal generated in South Wales for it to handle and processing facilities in the Midlands to handle coal produced there? Did all coal have to go via a washery or was it only certain pits or customers that needed it?

Quote:
Coal traffic was handled at Maesteg and Garw although the sim isn't really suitable for handling either. the traffic was mostly worked to Margam for remarshalling.
The stub of the Garw branch is simulated, so I think I'll park something up there for a few hours and pretend it went the length of the branch. Similarly, I'm thinking of a less frequent passenger service to Maesteg during the day so I can sneak a couple of freights there and back as a representation.

Quote:
Trostre produced steel traffic which was/is tripped to Margam for remarshalling or receipt into Port Talbot. There is also a scrap flow to Margam using SSAs, however I don't know if thats always been the case.
From a brief Google and RTT search, would I be correct in thinking that raw steel slab goes from Margam Works to Trostre, and then finished tinplate from Trostre to A.N. Other destination elsewhere in the country?
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Port Talbot area- former freight flows 26/02/2023 at 12:26 #150685
bill_gensheet
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1432 posts
Online 		Digging further some more information but also queries.

The Llandarcy - Rowley Regis seem clear cut as 'retail' fuels, petrol diesel, home heating kerosene.

The odd ones are the Langley Green trains from Llandeilo Jn. Found images in the WestMids area showing slightly unusual TTA tanks which might be for other oil based products used up there, or fuel for factory processes.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/12390488715/
although the yard also contains cement and other chemical tanks.

Is there a reason for the origin of Llandeilo Jn. ? Were the Langley Green formed by trips from the Milford Haven refineries, or was Llandeilo Jn. just a starting point for trains actually loading in the Swansea area (Llandarcy, Baglan Bay ....)

From the list above, through trains ran from Waterston / Herbrandston via Shrewsbury, they did not 'restart' Llandeilo Jn.
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Port Talbot area- former freight flows 26/02/2023 at 17:30 #150687
bill_gensheet
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1432 posts
Online 		Steamer in post 150093 said:
.


From a brief Google and RTT search, would I be correct in thinking that raw steel slab goes from Margam Works to Trostre, and then finished tinplate from Trostre to A.N. Other destination elsewhere in the country?
Steel coil from Port Talbot, not slab.
Sent to places making tinned food, which would be many and so unlikely trainload.
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Port Talbot area- former freight flows 27/02/2023 at 14:03 #150688
pjm38uk
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11 posts 		bill_gensheet in post 150685 said:
Digging further some more information but also queries.
The odd ones are the Langley Green trains from Llandeilo Jn. Found images in the WestMids area showing slightly unusual TTA tanks which might be for other oil based products used up there, or fuel for factory processes.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/12390488715/
although the yard also contains cement and other chemical tanks.

These services were diverted to/from Great Bridge in January 1976 suggesting steel, and having just searched through some of my late fathers photos of 6M82 prior to then they are indeed steel billets on bogie bolsters.

The tanks in the yard in the image you have linked to are probably chlorine tanks for Albright and Wison on the Oldbury branch but there was also methanol for British Industrial Plastics, which is the factory in the left background. Both of those flows came from the north rather than South Wales.
Last edited: 27/02/2023 at 14:04 by pjm38uk
Reason: None given
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Port Talbot area- former freight flows 27/02/2023 at 16:05 #150689
bill_gensheet
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Online 		OK, that puts a different complexion on it, but the more confusing to be starting Llandeilo Jn., unless dual use ?

Steel must have been tripped onward, as Langley Green / Rood End does not seem to have unloading facilities, nor anywhere on the (then former) line to Snow Hill.

Have found that the main UK supply of cyclo-hexane, used heavily at BIP, was Waterston but cyclohexane tanks did not have top walkways - methanol ones did as the photo linked above.
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/trlcyclohexane
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/procorviptank
The A&W acid tanks are the long train, with the smaller tank wagons.

(We think it is a signalling sim, but end up finding out about refinery types in west Wales, wagon design and what chemicals you need to make Nylon6 !)
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