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| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 15:08 #2978 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Alternative vote question Probably left it a bit late in the day to actually try and understand how AV works but having searched several sites none seem to fully explain it. I understand the actual voting and how to fill in the paper. I also follow the counting system 1st and 2nd round but every site I have looked at then says …and so on… It's the and so on that I can't get to grips with. So say we have 100 electors and 4 candidates and ever elector fully completes their ballot paper. Round 1- 1 gets 31votes, 2 gets 30, 3 gets 29, 4 gets 10 so 4 is eliminated. Now the voters for 4s second preferences were 1 got 2 votes, 2 got 5 votes and 3 got 3 votes and we add these to the first round tally so 1 now has 33, 2 has 35, 3 has 32 so far so good but no-one has won. So 3 is eliminated and 3 has second preferences for 1 got 9, 2 got 9 and 4 got 11 the 11 for 4 are discounted (presumably) so that leaves 1 with original 31 + 9 from #3's second preferences making 40 and similarly 2 30+9 = 39. So do they retain the second preferences from 4? - presumably they do - so that's 40+2 (42) and 39+5 =(44) but we are now 14 votes adrift from 100 which are the 11 from number 3's first preference for number 4 and 3 from number 4's 1st preference for 3. What happens next- that's where I get stuck! Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 15:08 #15477 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Alternative vote question Probably left it a bit late in the day to actually try and understand how AV works but having searched several sites none seem to fully explain it. I understand the actual voting and how to fill in the paper. I also follow the counting system 1st and 2nd round but every site I have looked at then says …and so on… It's the and so on that I can't get to grips with. So say we have 100 electors and 4 candidates and ever elector fully completes their ballot paper. Round 1- 1 gets 31votes, 2 gets 30, 3 gets 29, 4 gets 10 so 4 is eliminated. Now the voters for 4s second preferences were 1 got 2 votes, 2 got 5 votes and 3 got 3 votes and we add these to the first round tally so 1 now has 33, 2 has 35, 3 has 32 so far so good but no-one has won. So 3 is eliminated and 3 has second preferences for 1 got 9, 2 got 9 and 4 got 11 the 11 for 4 are discounted (presumably) so that leaves 1 with original 31 + 9 from #3's second preferences making 40 and similarly 2 30+9 = 39. So do they retain the second preferences from 4? - presumably they do - so that's 40+2 (42) and 39+5 =(44) but we are now 14 votes adrift from 100 which are the 11 from number 3's first preference for number 4 and 3 from number 4's 1st preference for 3. What happens next- that's where I get stuck! Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 15:31 #15478 | |
Danny252
1461 posts |
Provided any of someone's preferences are still in the race, their vote will still be counted for the highest-ranked still-valid candidate. So if your choices were 4, 3, and 2, in that order: At the end of round 1, #4 is eliminated. Your vote is now counted for #3. At the end of round 2, #3 is eliminated. Your vote is now counted for #2. If your choices were 4, 2 and 1, in that order: At the end of round 1, #4 is eliminated. Your vote is now counted for #2. At the end of round 2, #3 is eliminated. Your vote is not changed - you are still counted for #2. If, however, you selected none of the remaining candidates as a preference (you can vote only for 4, but not list any further preference), your vote is obviously discarded. Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 15:57 #15479 | |
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Lordmwa
148 posts |
If you like cats then i find this quite a good yet entertaining video describing it - very simple http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiHuiDD_oTk Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 16:25 #15480 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
That video with the cats actually explained the video better than any other way I've seen!
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 17:17 #15482 | |
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Lordmwa
148 posts |
It is amazing VOTE YES!!!!!! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 17:17 #15483 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Peter Bennet said:So 3 is eliminated and 3 has second preferences for 1 got 9, 2 got 9 and 4 got 11 the 11 for 4 are discounted (presumably) so that leaves 1 with original 31 + 9 from #3's second preferences making 40 and similarly 2 30+9 = 39.No, that's where you go wrong. At this point 3 had 32 people voting for her. You look at their ballots and find the highest preference that isn't 3 or 4. So for both the 11 with 4 as second preference and the 3 that had 4 as first preference and 3 as second preference, you look at their third preferences. Of the 32, say 20 have 1 as second or third preference as appropriate while 12 have 2. Then 1 now has 52 and 2 now has 47, so 1 wins. Another way to look at it (and this is what the legislation effectively says) is that each round you treat the ballot papers as if they didn't mention the people who have been eliminated, and then completely re-count. So in the second round, a paper that says "4 1 2 3" is counted as if it said "1 2 3", while a ballot paper that says "1 4 3 2" is counted as if it says "1 3 2". In principle you re-count all the papers in each round. In practice, you only need to re-count those for the person being eliminated. Done this way, your example goes: Round 1: Look at the first preferences. 1 gets 31, 2 gets 30, 3 gets 29, 4 gets 10. Nobody has the 51 necessary to win, so eliminate 4. Round 2: Look at the highest preference that isn't "4". 1 gets 33, 2 gets 35, 3 gets 32. Nobody has the 51 necessary to win, so eliminate 3. Round 3: Look at the highest preference that isn't "3" or "4". 1 gets 53, 2 gets 47. 1 wins. Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 17:32 #15484 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
I think the video was a bit superficial really and did not explain the maths which is what interested me - it assumed all the preference votes were for cat 2 were for cat 3- where as some might have been for cat 1 and some to dog. probably bad example to use 3 cats and a dog- better to have had say a mouse and a tortoise. However, having now sat down and thought it through further on the train home I think I've got to the bottom of what happens next to my example. We have 14 votes floating around unallocated being the 11 second preferences for #3 that voted for eliminated 4 which means that their 3rd and 4th preferences must have been for 1 or 2 as must be the 3 second preferences of #4 that had voted for the eliminated 3. So the 3rd preferences of candidate 3 and 4 must be for 1 or 2 (and the 4th for the 2 and 1) thus you get to the answer using 100% of the voters. Clearly if some don't use their full set of preferences they just get eliminated and discarded. Equally there is never any point in writing your last preference (4) as it can never count for anything. Obviously if there are more than 4 candidates then process continues further and further down the list of preferences. Quite interesting though and certainly not simple and it does seem that if you place our preferences carefully you can have your paper counted several times. Anyway my curiosity is satisfied - at least till someone tells me where I went wrong... Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 17:37 #15485 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Thanks Clive, I think I've got there by a slightly different route. Lordmwa- this is supposed to be educational not propagandist. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 18:05 #15486 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
Can you vote '0' for "None of the candidates"?
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 18:08 #15487 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
If there are so many spoilt papers where a single X is required, I despair to think how many will be spoilt by people not being able to count, in terms of putting their order of preference.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 18:45 #15489 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
As someone who has stood for election 4 times (many years ago) and canvassed many more times than that it really is worrying how thick a lot of the electorate was and probably still is. Peter. I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 18:56 #15490 | |
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Lordmwa
148 posts |
Appologies peter Andy - if you dont want any of the candidates why bother going...... Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 19:00 #15492 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
I believe in some countries it's compulsory and there is a box to indicate "No vote". Australia is one that comes to mind. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 20:10 #15497 | |
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Josie
310 posts |
Lordmwa said:Andy - if you dont want any of the candidates why bother going...... The very first time I voted I spoiled my ballot. There were four candidates and I didn't want to support anyone, but I think it's an important exercising of the democratic right to go and fill in a ballot, even if you don't actually want to vote for anyone. The number of spoiled ballots is usually announced along with the result - it's a useful method of protest, registering your presence but not your preference :-) Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 20:32 #15501 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
Peter Bennet said:I believe in some countries it's compulsoryMy Filipino wife gets ballot papers for postal votes - they're quite keen to get all the votes they can, though I don't think it's mandatory there. She had a registration card a couple of weeks ago, to elect the latest corrupt candidate ready to accept bribes. But enough about UK candidates.. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 04/05/2011 at 23:42 #15514 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Regarding AV, if you so wish to you can vote for only one candidate (which is as the system currently works anyway...) or you can vote for 2 or more candidates in your preferred order. With First Past The Post you can only vote for one candidate and that's it. Simples. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Alternative Voting query 05/05/2011 at 09:08 #15524 | |
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Josie
310 posts |
UKTrainMan said:Regarding AV, if you so wish to you can vote for only one candidate (which is as the system currently works anyway...) or you can vote for 2 or more candidates in your preferred order. With First Past The Post you can only vote for one candidate and that's it.It's also worth noting that under our current system you don't strictly have to use an X. It's strongly recommended that you do, but if there's any other clear display of preference then counting officers are supposed to accept it (although whether they do is another matter). With that in mind, I would expect ballot papers marked with an X under AV to be treated the same as any other mark is treated at the moment (i.e. ideally accepted as a first preference, with no other preferences stated). Log in to reply |