Rules Query

Personally I'd use "Must not enter until X minutes after Y leaves the simulation" (or whatever the exact wording is). If the sim entry point is Sutton then the exit point will also be Sutton- what is the last location in the outgoing train's schedule?

This thread ?
https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/54920?postId=152318
Found as I still had that test timetable called 'Shalford Exit rules'.

As Waddon is in-sim and the train does not report arriving at any stations towards Sutton, you are stuck with using 'leaves the area' to avoid issues with a delay happening at Waddon.
That does mean any train removal or diversion will enable the entry of the return train from Sutton.

With a test train (attached timetable) the drop off happens just before Wallington. Wallington times do not report in messages for trains towards Sutton
Wallington -> Waddon = 2m24s
Waddon -> exit = 2m21s
So you need to account for running time from Wallington arrival to Sutton, and then the turn around.
Entry is at Sutton

Bill

Hi Dave,

As others have said, it's easier to use "Train A won't enter until x mins after Train B has left the area" (or whichever the wording is)

Have a look at the rules in my 2012 tt for Three Bridges and you'll have the rough x min you'll need for Sutton and other exit/entry points. For Sutton as it's the last tt location in the sim and a terminating point, you just need to use the turnaround time you want to use for the appropriate stock, no other running times needed.

HTH
Gareth

Nonetheless that means, if I understand you correctly, that Carshalton doesn't need to be taken into account:

- 5B13 (0626 Selhurst T&RSMD - Sutton) arrives Sutton (SUO hereafter) at 0648 and then returns as 2B13 (0711 Sutton - London Victoria). The rule should be, given the TT (see file 5B13_08052022) that, to use the full text, "2B13/SN2B13_0711VIC must enter 26½ minutes after 5B13/SN5B13_0626SUO leaves the area." (Waddon and Carshalton don't appear in the schedule for 5B13).

- 2B22 (0816 London Victoria - Sutton) departs Wallington at 0856½ and arrives SUO at 0902 having called at Carshalton after Wallington; it then returns as 2B29 (0911 Sutton - London Victoria). The rule should be, given the TT (see file 2B22_08052022) that, to use the full text, "2B29/SN2B29_0911VIC must enter 14½ minutes after 2B22/SN2B22_0816SUO leaves the area."

Steamer in post 155515 said:

Personally I'd use "Must not enter until X minutes after Y leaves the simulation" (or whatever the exact wording is). If the sim entry point is Sutton then the exit point will also be Sutton- what is the last location in the outgoing train's schedule?

Last location in the schedule of the outgoing train is indeed Sutton. It is just a question of at which point clicking the outgoing train's ID would bring it up as "No active train."

Thanks Bill. The timetables validate all the way to the terminating point at Sutton but Sutton is not on the map: it is on Victoria Central.

- 5B13 (0626 Selhurst T&RSMD - Sutton) arrives Sutton (SUO hereafter) at 0648 and then returns as 2B13 (0711 Sutton - London Victoria). The rule should be, given the TT (see file 5B13_08052022) that, to use the full text, "2B13/SN2B13_0711VIC must enter 26½ minutes after 5B13/SN5B13_0626SUO leaves the area." (Waddon and Carshalton don't appear in the schedule for 5B13).

- 2B22 (0816 London Victoria - Sutton) departs Wallington at 0856½ and arrives SUO at 0902 having called at Carshalton after Wallington; it then returns as 2B29 (0911 Sutton - London Victoria). The rule should be, given the TT (see file 2B22_08052022) that, to use the full text, "2B29/SN2B29_0911VIC must enter 14½ minutes after 2B22/SN2B22_0816SUO leaves the area."

To give yet another opinion (!)
As the drop off is before the Wallington call, I would give 6½ minutes to Sutton for a stopper, 4 for ECS
Then your minimum turn around of 4 or 6 minutes depending on train type.

Maybe less on the last train of the shift.

bill_gensheet in post 155527 said:

To give yet another opinion (!)
As the drop off is before the Wallington call, I would give 6½ minutes to Sutton for a stopper, 4 for ECS
Then your minimum turn around of 4 or 6 minutes depending on train type.

Maybe less on the last train of the shift.

Many thanks. I will set it up as you suggest above. One thought with that though is that 2B10, for example, departs Waddon 0722½, arrives Wallington 0725½ and departs Wallington 0726½ to arrive Sutton 0732 so 6½ minutes to Sutton would be the same as the arrival time at Wallington. Should I make it 7 or 7½ minutes + turnaround time?

After I get this sorted I can work on the 2Axx but the question with those is how long to leave after Godstone before re-entering given that Edenbridge is not normally a terminus but was being used as one for the day in question because Edenbridge - Tonbridge was T3'd. I have to use Tonbridge as the entry point but I will work something out on that using the same rules as for these 2Bxx trains.

I can tighten it during testing when I come to it.

Dave

Be careful with trains that arrive late at Sutton, go to the sidings empty, come back empty to the station, then arrive back on Three Bridges. The trip to the siding can potentially be skipped if the train is late enough and there is no operational need to use the siding.

The same goes for metro style services elsewhere too. If you're running a service every (let's say) 10 minutes or more frequent, and a service is running 7.5+ late, it could be turned back early and slotted back before the train that would otherwise have preceded it. As far as SimSig is concerned, the re-entry time is not the time from the sim boundary to the end of the line (twice), but the time from the sim boundary to a possible turnaround point (twice). Hopefully that makes sense...

It can get very complicated very quickly!