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| Permissive Working for mixed traffic types? 04/11/2024 at 21:46 #159062 | |
9pN1SEAp
1180 posts 
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Hi, I've got a situation with 1978 TT for Swindon & Didcot where a Class 4 Parcels is occupying SWI P1 and P3 is unavailable. A local Class 2 terminating at Swindon is heading on the Up line timed to arrive before the Parcels is ready to depart. There's sufficient space on P1 to accommodate the service and the platform is PP-C. But I'm not sure if permissive platform working is allowed ONLY if both trains are passenger/ECS classes, or allowed based solely on the class of train being called-on. Please could someone advise? Thanks Jamie Jamie S (JAMS) Log in to reply |
| Permissive Working for mixed traffic types? 04/11/2024 at 22:00 #159063 | |
TUT
532 posts
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The modern Rule Book is quite clear on this point (although for reasons I've never quite fathomed the regulations appear only and specifically in Module TS2 Track Circuit Block Regulations). On goods and passenger (other than platform) lines it's the class of train that matters. 3-8 and 0 are the classes you can work permissively with. However on platform lines it explicitly says 1, 2, 3 ECS, 5, 9 and 0. Any class of train formed only of MPV vehicles when operating as a railhead treatment or inspection train. (Emphasis mine). For 1978 I'd have to defer to others, but my understanding is that generally passenger and freight trains do not mix when it comes to permissive working. Parcels trains are an interesting grey area I'd be just as curious to learn more about. Log in to reply |
| Permissive Working for mixed traffic types? 04/11/2024 at 22:59 #159064 | |
Steamer
3984 posts |
Asked this exact question myself during my Guard's training at a heritage railway- in our case platforms are permissive for passenger, ECS and light engines only. Answer I was given (and again this is the railway's own rule book only) was that accepting a call-on with a freight train is a SPAD (as the call-on signal does not apply to your train), but being called on with a passenger train with a freight in the platform is OK as far as traincrew are concerned. Whether the signalman would be in trouble for it I can't honestly say. Again, in our case 'parcels' (such as it is) falls under the remit of a passenger guard, and I believe this was also the case 'back in the day'? Weren't parcels trains also signalled on the basis of being comprised entirely of vehicles with passenger-standard couplings and braking capabilities? "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 04/11/2024 at 23:02 by Steamer Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: 9pN1SEAp |
| Permissive Working for mixed traffic types? 05/11/2024 at 00:00 #159065 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts
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Does this count as permssive ? Or is it a potentially mobile buffer stop ? Bill  Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply |
| Permissive Working for mixed traffic types? 05/11/2024 at 09:41 #159067 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
Back in the day (the 1972 Block Regs, which lasted until the late 1980s IIRC), there were three flavours of Permissive Block. PB(G) was goods lines. Time was when goods lines were permissive by default and there were entries in the Sectional Appendix to show otherwise. Normally only goods trains would be worked over them. If passenger trains needed to use them in emergency or under special instructions, a 'block conversion ticket' had to be used, sent through the section with the last train that would be worked permissively; full Absolute Block regulations (including clearing points - the goods line default was the home signal) then applied until a further block conversion ticket was sent through. PB(P) was for passenger lines, but PB was worked only for goods trains (which meant all trains in the permissive section must be goods trains, no passenger at all). Obviously no need for block conversion tickets, as normal AB applied to passenger trains. PB(PF) was platform lines. PB was for passenger trains only and goods trains had to be worked AB. Where PB was authorised, the SA would show PB(P) or PB(PF) as appropriate in Table A. At some locations (Crewe was the only one I know for certain but I suspect there were more) the SA showed PB(P & PF). Whether it was permitted to mix goods and passenger in the same section I don't know, though if Crewe North Junction has preserved a copy of the older SBSIs that might tell us. But I wonder if it might in fact have been a matter of local interpretation (which might, in turn depend on traffic needs at the time, with the SA entry providing backside cover if anyone objected). Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TUT, flabberdacks |
| Permissive Working for mixed traffic types? 05/11/2024 at 09:51 #159068 | |
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Jan
906 posts |
Out of curiosity, does anybody have a definition of what exactly counts as "contingency use"? Does it just mean that the permissive platform working facilities cannot be used for writing the timetable, but during day-to-day usage signallers are completely free to make use of them however they see fit, or are certain restrictions placed on the signallers, too, like only to avoid major delays or during major disruptions or whatever… (which would of course in turn raise the question of what counts as a major disruption).
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
| Permissive Working for mixed traffic types? 05/11/2024 at 09:54 #159069 | |
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JamesN
1607 posts |
The other option is that the Parcels is timetabled in SimSig in the wrong platform for its loading/unloading. In 1978 the parcels platform on the downside would still have been in use; and that is where all the facilities for loading/unloading and handling were. With how station workings weren’t fully accurately shown in WTTs in the 1970s, it’s entirely plausible in my eyes for the Class 4 to be shunted to/from the Parcels platform for its loading and unloading, with your class 2 using platform 1 in the meantime. Log in to reply |
| Permissive Working for mixed traffic types? 05/11/2024 at 10:34 #159070 | |
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9pN1SEAp
1180 posts
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Hi James, Looking at the signalling at Swindon in that era of SimSig the Parcels platform has no pointwork to reach the Up Main; it would have to run wrong way to Bourton crossover past 277LOS. Thanks Jamie Jamie S (JAMS) Log in to reply |
| Permissive Working for mixed traffic types? 05/11/2024 at 11:22 #159071 | |
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JamesN
1607 posts |
No, but you could arrive off the Up Main into 1 (or 3), then shunt back out at either end of the station onto the Down Main (behind SN227 or SN28), then into Parcels. And then once loading/unloading is complete, the same could be done in reverse. As we’ve seen from other timetables for other sims in the era; such shunt workings weren’t uncommon. In 1978 you wouldn’t have been able to run wrong-line to Bourton; the reversible signalling didn’t come in until some time later. Log in to reply |
| Permissive Working for mixed traffic types? 06/11/2024 at 06:08 #159077 | |
jc92
3685 posts
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looking at the 1972 block book, it references passenger permissive including all trains composed of coaching stock. Certainly class 1 and 3 trains would consist entirely of vehicles conforming to coaching stock standards (NPCCS - non passenger carrying coaching stock). Indeed the original train classification system expressly states this (class C - Parcels train consisting entirely of vehicles conforming to coaching stock standards) Dependent on year, class 4 and 6 would often include Vanfits and older pregrouping 4 and 6 wheel vans that may not conform to those standards. Some services were classified as 4 or 6 due to brake force though in the case of certain short formations. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |