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| Any chance we will get the LUL Picadilly Line in the game? 10/01/2025 at 03:08 #159874 | |
747Pilot
6 posts |
So there is someone I watch on YouTube who drives the Picadilly Line and would really love to be able to do signaling for it in the sim. What are the chances of this route being made for the sim? I'm not from the UK and still new to the sim so I don't know how often new lines are released. Thanks Log in to reply |
| Any chance we will get the LUL Picadilly Line in the game? 10/01/2025 at 09:41 #159877 | |
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jonathanp
20 posts |
Simulations of the Victoria line and the Waterloo and City line area available. Apart from that, the development team never comments on future plans. I am curious what you would consider the attractions of operating signalling on metro lines. 99% of trains go from one end of the line to the other, change round and come back again. Isn't that rather tedious? Log in to reply |
| Any chance we will get the LUL Picadilly Line in the game? 10/01/2025 at 12:39 #159879 | |
Peter Bennet
5427 posts |
To be fair, the Piccadilly line does have a few different destinations. I did the Victoria line more out if curiosity as i (then) used it every day. It does chain to an embryonic Piccadilly line Sim but that's all. I have no plans to go any further than that. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Any chance we will get the LUL Picadilly Line in the game? 10/01/2025 at 20:08 #159887 | |
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Jan
918 posts |
jonathanp in post 159877 said:I am curious what you would consider the attractions of operating signalling on metro lines. 99% of trains go from one end of the line to the other, change round and come back again. Isn't that rather tedious? Managing the service during and after perturbations would provide some interest I guess, even if Simsig isn't perfectly made for that use-case (limited amount of incidents provided [1], no tracking of rolling stock available in depots, no simulation of driver's turns, etc.) [1] Although the Victoria line sim does try to add a few metro-specific incidents. Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
| Any chance we will get the LUL Picadilly Line in the game? 10/01/2025 at 22:21 #159889 | |
postal
5313 posts |
Jan in post 159887 said:. . . .no simulation of driver's turns. . . . .If the TT writer has details of the driver rostering that can be covered by putting in appropriate rules. For example if a driver comes off one train for a break then the next train he is due to work cannot depart until that break time (plus whatever time is allowed for closing down, travelling to rest facilities, setting up etc) has elapsed from the arrival of the first train. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 10/01/2025 at 22:21 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Any chance we will get the LUL Picadilly Line in the game? 11/01/2025 at 17:53 #159891 | |
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Jan
918 posts |
Yeah, that's true, but then I imagine making any on-the-fly alterations to that probably becomes a bit cumbersome because you have to edit a bunch of opaque rules. If you really wanted to model the control side of things more closely, I think there's no way around having drivers as first-class simulation objects, too.
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
| Any chance we will get the LUL Picadilly Line in the game? 21/01/2025 at 20:05 #159996 | |
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TUT
554 posts |
Myself I actually don't share the negativity. I think it would be really quite good fun. If the whole line were to be simulated (or even just Earl's Court/South Kensington, which covers almost everything) you'd have complete control of all of your trains, allowing you to play at service recovery really nicely. No you probably wouldn't be able to get into the depths of crew diagrams and driver relief, but at least you can decide to reverse a train short and see exactly how much time it makes up. If you're playing a sim like, say, Exeter, where trains are coming from all over the place on long journeys there's almost no way without hunting down all of the timetables yourself to work out what 1C04 (the Paddington to Penzance) would have turned into at Penzance if you take it upon yourself to terminate it at, say, Taunton. Also what if Control decide to terminate it at Plymouth? It's really a bit outside of the scope of SimSig. But if you have a self-contained little sim you can make those kinds of decisions, try them out and see how it works, at least without hunting down timetable source materials, calculating minimum turn-around times, etc. I also wouldn't think it would be particularly boring. A metro line can be quite a dreary prospect. The timetable is usually very repetitive and often trains do just shuttle back and forth from start to end. But with the Piccadilly Line of London Underground there's actually quite a lot to enjoy. You've got a 3-platform terminus at Cockfosters with a Depot with connections to the main line at both ends (Cockfosters and Oakwood). You've got Arnos Grove with fully-signalled sidings and trains terminating throughout the day. Through the pipe there wouldn't be very much going on, but then you get out into Barons Court and you've got the junctions with the District. They wouldn't get used much, but if the District were to be simulated as well, at least from Barons Court (I wouldn't recommend the rest of the District as well, it would be far too much, not even just the part controlled from Earls Court), you'd have the junction at Turnham Green to watch. Acton Town would be a great little site to play with with the junctions between Fast and Local Lines, the connections to Ealing Common Depot and the junctions between the Heathrow and Rayners Lane Branches. You'd have the other connection to Ealing Common Depot at Ealing Common Station, Hanger Lane Junction (if the District isn't simulated at all that wouldn't really add anything), up to South Harrow and the Sidings there and then potentially the junction with the Metropolitan at Rayners Lane and regular use of the reversing siding by Piccadilly Line trains. Potentially we could then continue to Uxbridge with another 3-platform terminus and another large set of fully-signalled sidings. Down the Heathrow branch you've got the connections to Northfields Depot at Northfields and Boston Manor and regular terminators at Northfields, you've got the junctions at Hatton Cross and Heathrow, the sidings at Terminal 5. Plenty of opportunities for wrong routes, plenty of regulating decisions (albeit in reality and in the sim first come first served is almost always going to be the best policy, I will give you that), terminating trains, bringing trains into service from depots and fully-signalled sidings, putting them away again. I reckon it'd be quite satisfying, putting everything to bed at the end of the timetable. It's satisfying in real life and a feature of Marylebone I have always enjoyed, with the sidings at Rickmansworth and Watford on the Met and at Aylesbury on the Chiltern Line. Now it's true, you're not gonna have any freight. You're not gonna have stoppers mixing with express passenger trains. You're not gonna have anything to compare with the likes of Carlisle 79-80. And even with ARS (it would be impossible without it I should think, although you probably could do it with good use of auto buttons or equivalent) it's likely to be a bit of a mindless 'click-athon'. But you know a lot of suburban sims are like that. A lot of modern timetables are clock-face or nearly clock-face and there are plenty of sims out there where most of the timetable is spent passing trains through, so in effect they just go from one end of your little patch to the other, except maybe once an hour, at the same time every hour, you put something in a bay platform. Take Watford Junction for example. You'll loop a few freights, a train here and another one there will terminate at Watford Junction and getting the train on and off the St Albans Abbey branch is a nice little bit of something different. But really you're just passing trains through most of the time. Maidstone East is another one that sticks out in my mind. In the ground hog day timetable the bay platform was barely used and almost nothing really happened. Having put all of that in the 'pro' column, I do however have a few points against the idea. Firstly, obviously, the scope is going to be a bit difficult to define. A Piccadilly Line sim will have to include the shared portions with the District and the Rayners Lane Branch which is shared with the Metropolitan. That will add a lot of work for timetablers and players alike, unless we just don't include any trains on those lines, which would be a bit naff. Alternatively we might decide to do an Earl's Court/South Kensington sim. That's a bit more in line with what we normally do. This is a signalling simulator which tends to simulate signal boxes and their panels/workstations. Not necessarily 'lines', which are a bit more loosely defined on the national network, which doesn't tend to have self-contained little lines. But that would be absolutely massive and would probably warrant two sims: a Piccadilly Line one and a District Line one, which doesn't really get us anywhere. Secondly, London Underground colour light signalling is quite different to Network Rail colour light signalling, so it would be a lot of work to implement for someone I should have thought. It's not night and day, I'm sure it's perfectly doable, it has been done on Marylebone IECC for example, but it wouldn't be just another sim like Derby or Huddersfield. And in terms of how the Piccadilly Line was controlled from Earls Court and is controlled from South Kensington. Well. It's nothing like SimSig's way of doing things, based on IECCs, which themselves are in many ways digital recreations of the NX philosophy. Now that's not necessarily the end of the world. Catchart simulates an OCS panel, we've had a couple of lever frame simulations and a lot of sims that simulate mechanical signalling as if it were worked from a computer workstation. But if you want to feel like a Piccadilly Line signaller (I think they've started calling them signallers again, at one point they were service operators) then I really don't think SimSig is the place to look. Log in to reply |
| Any chance we will get the LUL Picadilly Line in the game? Yesterday at 07:28 #159998 | |
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Jan
918 posts |
Since you mention Exeter in particular – what you say regarding attempting to play at service control is true for the long distance services, but Exeter does also have the Paignton – Exeter – Exmouth/Barnstaple local services, which are completely self-contained within the sim and therefore perfect for trying your hand at service recovery. (Other sims that are good examples for that are King's Cross [the inner suburbans to Welwyn and Hertford/Stevenage/Letchworth], LTS, Sandhills [with two little gaps at Hunts Cross and Chester, which would have to be covered by timetable rules – chaining Hunts Cross solo instead might still be manageable, chaining Chester probably rather not], Edinburgh [the Fife circle services] and possibly Marylebone [at least the Aylesbury services, don't know the service pattern on the main line well enough off-hand]. Also the NLL for those that still have it. Bristol had the Severn Beach and Weston-super-Mare trains, and Trent the Robin Hood line, albeit without the extension to Worksop. If you're slightly crazy, you can also try running all three Cardiff sims together – it's a bit madness trying to run it all singlehandedly, but it does give you the complete Valley Lines service to manage.) Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TUT |
| Any chance we will get the LUL Picadilly Line in the game? Yesterday at 12:18 #160001 | |
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bill_gensheet
1447 posts |
Jan in post 159998 said:An alternative approach there could be to write / edit down chaining timetables on Hunts Cross & Chester that only contained the Merseyrail trains. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Jan |
| Any chance we will get the LUL Picadilly Line in the game? Yesterday at 20:07 #160005 | |
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metcontrol
231 posts |
To add my two penn'orth as both an employee of LU and a controller of some lines (1 of which is far superior to the dark blue toy railway ahem  )On the side of what it would offer even without the knowledge of Train Operator duties and the like, you would have a fairly intense service with the need to quite often reverse trains and lots of other things to recover the service - something which although SimSig can do, on a scale of such a tube line it may become a bit too fiddly to achieve everything. Unless of course some kind of complete custom programming was put in to enable such things as an easy "reverse train at location x and renumber it to train y" type command that can be used by the player. In times of a shutdown or severe disruption this type of typical command could be needed more than once a minute. Also maybe some system of holding all station starting signals. As soon as a delay occurs, signallers rapidly hold the service behind to prevent a queue of trains in tunnels from forming. They also hold ahead of a delay to prevent a huge service interval occurring. I could go on, but then I guess I would be stuck here more than just this evening teaching you all how to be signallers or controllers on the underground lol. However, all this said, I am afraid that even if it was decided by the development team to pursue this idea, my company is still extremely reluctant to support this type of thing (on grounds of security etc) and obtaining the necessary detailed information is by far from easy and would not be willingly provided by LUL/TFL. The recent cyber attack experienced by certain areas of the organisation will likely have locked things down even further. Like the already available Victoria Line, the Picc is undergoing an update but even that doesn't mean the old train and signalling information becomes available to anyone. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TUT |
| Any chance we will get the LUL Picadilly Line in the game? Yesterday at 20:34 #160006 | |
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TUT
554 posts |
metcontrol in post 160005 said:However, all this said, I am afraid that even if it was decided by the development team to pursue this idea, my company is still extremely reluctant to support this type of thing (on grounds of security etc) and obtaining the necessary detailed information is by far from easy and would not be willingly provided by LUL/TFL. The recent cyber attack experienced by certain areas of the organisation will likely have locked things down even further.Indeed, I would say it would be a bit of a pipedream and we should not hold our breaths for a sim any time soon. However. metcontrol in post 160005 said: On the side of what it would offer even without the knowledge of Train Operator duties and the like, you would have a fairly intense service with the need to quite often reverse trains and lots of other things to recover the service - something which although SimSig can do, on a scale of such a tube line it may become a bit too fiddly to achieve everything. Unless of course some kind of complete custom programming was put in to enable such things as an easy "reverse train at location x and renumber it to train y" type command that can be used by the player. In times of a shutdown or severe disruption this type of typical command could be needed more than once a minute.Auto-reversing has been done on SimSig before and could very nicely reflect the use of such buttons at Earls Court. Also if it had ARS (which it would need) you could edit the timetable to have a train terminate at Hatton Cross, say, and the ARS would do it for you, which I think would model really quite accurately the way things were/are typically done at Baker Street (if I'm not mistaken) and I believe with the Piccadilly East End Control System. I don't know how things are done at South Ken today, I did read an LURS article about it, but it seemed a bit light on the details, but apparently there are two mice, no keyboards and "an additional single screen to select, display and operate route signally buttons". Don't know what that means, but I would be surprised to learn that day-to-day work at South Ken didn't involve timetable editing as well, as depressing as that is. Not actually my idea of a good time I have to be honest, in fact I could not be paid enough money to set foot in South Kensington, but my own idea of what signalling should be like aside, the point I'm making is it seems to me you could actually get quite a bit of realism by editing trips like that. And whilst the data entry side of things might be my own personal idea of Hell, getting to decide to turn the late-runner at Hatton Cross, put one away in Down Street Siding, turn the Rayners Lane train around in the platform, etc. etc. and then seeing how it works would, for my money, be more fun than trying to deal with faults and failures merely by replatforming and regulating so far as that is possible and clicking through the menus to pass signals at danger as quickly as possible. Also while mindlessly operating a very intense service isn't for everyone if you like having many plates spinning and trying to keep on top of a lot whilst routing trains manually and making sure they all go the right way I don't think you'd run out of things to do on a Piccadilly Line sim even if the pattern would repeat a lot. Log in to reply |