Lever Frame intensive simulations

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Lever Frame intensive simulations Yesterday at 17:50 #160233
Davem1958
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17 posts 		I wonder if anyone could recommend some particular simulations that are thoroughly replete with lever frames?

Most simulations, where they have lever frames at all, require them to be used on a rather sporadic basis, leaving me to have to go and consult the manual to figure out what I'm suppose to do.

At the risk of sounding a little masochistic, I'd like to immerse myself in 'lever frame hell' to try and get to a point where handling lever frames becomes second nature.

Any suggestions?
Last edited: Yesterday at 17:50 by Davem1958
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Lever Frame intensive simulations Yesterday at 18:26 #160234
TUT
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Online 		There are, I believe, only two SimSig simulations that simulate lever frames as lever frames, those being Hunts Cross and Tyneside IECC.

SimSig is not really designed to simulate lever frames and to the extent that it does, it's a nice feature, a little something different to bring a bit of variety. But it's not really what SimSig is for. Also while SimSig does have quite an extensive range of absolute block simulations, the most common SimSig style as used on, for example, Cornwall and Hereford is not actually that authentic really. The other model of AB used by SimSig in simulations like East Coastway and Aston is actually a bit more realistic, though it is very unforgiving and quite labour intensive. Block bells are not meaningfully simulated at all.

SimSig is not really the product for this. There are products for this that you can find. However I'm not really sure it's appropriate to advertise and recommend other products on the SimSig forum. You could also take yourself off to Crewe and see if you can volunteer at Exeter West. Or perhaps volunteering at a heritage railway might work for you.

Incidentally there is no such thing as lever frame hell, though there is such a thing as telephone-induced fatigue! It is worth pointing out that any computer simulation of a lever frame is going to be extremely lacking. I mean it's fine. But the joy of the levers is physically taking hold of a heavy lever and throwing your weight behind it. They're heavy. You have to use your whole body. You're walking up and down the frame, almost dancing, throwing the heavy levers around. Whish. Bang. Whish. Bang. They're loud! It's invigorating. It makes you feel alive. Ding. The piercing ring of the block bell. Clicking a picture of a lever on a screen is ... I mean, I get it, one wants a simulation that one can play with at home to get one's head around how they operate. I understand Exeter West trains its signalmen on a computer replication. But. I mean. It's a bit like saying I can't ride roller coasters so I'm going to watch a video of a roller coaster to simulate the experience. I mean you can get professional motion simulators that might capture the experience, but a desktop computer roller coaster simulation is ... a bit pointless really. But you know, that's for you to decide, I appreciate that one has to make do with what one has available and we cannot let the perfect be the enemy of the good. But I don't think a PC game can really ever simulate a lever frame in the way that it clearly can effectively simulate a computer workstation.
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Lever Frame intensive simulations Yesterday at 22:14 #160242
bill_gensheet
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1460 posts 		lever frames or ground frames ?

For lever frames as in traditional signalboxes I can simply agree with TUT above.

If it is ground frames I used them a lot in Motherwell 1984 TT - but you'd need to choose the 'full' timetable with all the trips in it.
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Lever Frame intensive simulations Today at 01:18 #160244
Davem1958
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17 posts 		Thanks, gentlemen. Yes, it was really ground frames I was referring to. Forgive my semantic mistake.

Dave
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Lever Frame intensive simulations Today at 01:55 #160245
TUT
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Online 		Davem1958 in post 160244 said:
Thanks, gentlemen. Yes, it was really ground frames I was referring to. Forgive my semantic mistake.

Dave
Oh! Sorry it was my mistake really. Ground frames are of course lever frames (there are ground switch panels as well, which might be loosely termed ground frames, but let's not muddy the waters) and they are indeed modelled as lever frames in SimSig (in fact I think there's a ground switch panel at Wembley Central which is modelled as a lever frame in SimSig even though it isn't one in real life) and are much more common in SimSig. Carlisle makes good use of some ground frames, LTS might give you a bit of practice. By their nature they're not typically meant to be in constant use otherwise they'd typically warrant full and proper signalling from the panel or workstation.
Last edited: Today at 05:21 by TUT
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Lever Frame intensive simulations Today at 07:30 #160246
KCRCRailway
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Online 		TUT in post 160245 said:
Davem1958 in post 160244 said:
Thanks, gentlemen. Yes, it was really ground frames I was referring to. Forgive my semantic mistake.

Dave
Ground frames are of course lever frames (there are ground switch panels as well, which might be loosely termed ground frames, but let's not muddy the waters)
To muddy the water, it seems the Hong Kong East (East Rail)'s Lo Wu Yard had 2 generation of switch panel / computerlized local control, neither was in form of lever frame. But then there is one (disconnected) in Tai Po Railway Museum branch, but then it seems not really a ground lever frame but a proper station lever control...
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Lever Frame intensive simulations Today at 07:34 #160247
KCRCRailway
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Online 		TUT in post 160234 said:
There are, I believe, only two SimSig simulations that simulate lever frames as lever frames, those being Hunts Cross and Tyneside IECC.

SimSig is not really the product for this. There are products for this that you can find. However I'm not really sure it's appropriate to advertise and recommend other products on the SimSig forum. You could also take yourself off to Crewe and see if you can volunteer at Exeter West. Or perhaps volunteering at a heritage railway might work for you.

I assume nobody really mind that, in fact in the LINK section (https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Article/Details/108) there is link to Blockpost which further provide link to similar sims.
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Lever Frame intensive simulations Today at 09:40 #160248
kbarber
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1773 posts 		KCRCRailway in post 160247 said:
TUT in post 160234 said:
There are, I believe, only two SimSig simulations that simulate lever frames as lever frames, those being Hunts Cross and Tyneside IECC.

SimSig is not really the product for this. There are products for this that you can find. However I'm not really sure it's appropriate to advertise and recommend other products on the SimSig forum. You could also take yourself off to Crewe and see if you can volunteer at Exeter West. Or perhaps volunteering at a heritage railway might work for you.

I assume nobody really mind that, in fact in the LINK section (https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Article/Details/108) there is link to Blockpost which further provide link to similar sims.
So far as I'm aware that has always been the case. Blockpost has a good reputation (if I understand it correctly it was originally developed to provide a simulator connected to the real Exeter West 'box, which is now at Crewe, so has a lot of authentic detail simulated). I haven't actually used it so I can't say how good it is. There are others. They aren't really in competition with SimSig, which - as TUT says - was developed to simulate panel and workstation operation. The one thing none of them offer is multiple boxes with any kind of block working between them - paradoxically, at the moment only SimSig has that feature.

Again, TUT is right that there is no substitute for actually working a mechanical box. But as there aren't really that many left (and very few with the sort of complex working and multiple authorisations I knew at Finchley Road (Midland) and at Kensington (North Main and South Main boxes)), computer simulations are about all we have - and even developing them is likely to become increasingly difficult as us old dinosaurs who worked them get more & more ancient and eventually drop off the twig.

As these seem to be separate markets, I can't for my part see any problem with personal recommendations - subject always to what Geoff says. It would, of course, be up to Geoff to decide whether developers or others should be inhibited from doing so.
Last edited: Today at 09:45 by kbarber
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Lever Frame intensive simulations Today at 10:06 #160250
jc92
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3715 posts 		TUT in post 160245 said:
Davem1958 in post 160244 said:
Thanks, gentlemen. Yes, it was really ground frames I was referring to. Forgive my semantic mistake.

Dave
Oh! Sorry it was my mistake really. Ground frames are of course lever frames (there are ground switch panels as well, which might be loosely termed ground frames, but let's not muddy the waters) and they are indeed modelled as lever frames in SimSig (in fact I think there's a ground switch panel at Wembley Central which is modelled as a lever frame in SimSig even though it isn't one in real life) and are much more common in SimSig. Carlisle makes good use of some ground frames, LTS might give you a bit of practice. By their nature they're not typically meant to be in constant use otherwise they'd typically warrant full and proper signalling from the panel or workstation.
The LMR took the opposite view with their midlands schemes at Saltley, trent and Derby, with multiple boxes retained as shunt frames, manned for full shifts with only the main routes signalled by the panel then released back for shunting locally.

The last ones in use were Stapleford and Sandiacre and Toton Centre which only went when EMCC took over. Those were in continous use all day for movements onto the yards and off, loco moves on and off the depot and inter yard shunts. Simsig trent simplifies it. Hopefully if trent is ever redone, it gets the real deal.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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The following user said thank you: TUT
Lever Frame intensive simulations Today at 14:44 #160253
TUT
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Online 		kbarber in post 160248 said:
KCRCRailway in post 160247 said:

I assume nobody really mind that, in fact in the LINK section (https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Article/Details/108) there is link to Blockpost which further provide link to similar sims.
So far as I'm aware that has always been the case. Blockpost has a good reputation (if I understand it correctly it was originally developed to provide a simulator connected to the real Exeter West 'box, which is now at Crewe, so has a lot of authentic detail simulated). I haven't actually used it so I can't say how good it is. There are others. They aren't really in competition with SimSig, which - as TUT says - was developed to simulate panel and workstation operation. The one thing none of them offer is multiple boxes with any kind of block working between them - paradoxically, at the moment only SimSig has that feature.
Bockpost is pretty good so far as it goes, although I believe it absolutely will not work on Linux with Wine.

For me the biggest drawback of Blockpost as an absolute block sim is it works the block instruments for you. There is no way to move the block indicator yourself, which seems like a bit of a flaw to me. Another problem, which is far harder to solve, is that real, authentic mechanical signalling and AB signalling requires quite a lot of looking out of the window, checking that signals have responded correctly to levers, looking for backlights, looking for tail lamps, waiting for a train to stop or nearly stop at a signal, making sure it's clear of non-track-circuited portions of line and so on. I understand Exeter West includes simulated whistles from trains to give indications of certain things, but if you can't see outside the box and all you've got is track circuit indications you are quite a long way off before you've even started. Also, the nature of simulating large mechanical lever frames is they take up quite a lot of room on the screen, meaning if you want detail you may have to do a fair bit of zooming in and out. Very easy to click on the wrong lever if you're zoomed out far enough to see them all. The timetables are also quite limited in number and don't seem to even run for a full day. It does speed through large gaps between trains automatically, though, I think, which is nice if true. And in fairness, the sims are quite a lot of money. Which to be honest, I understand, I imagine a huge amount of effort goes into them and we've all got to eat. There won't be a big market for a product like that, so you need a decent amount of money from each sale to justify the effort that goes into them, because you simply aren't going to be selling thousands and thousands every year. But for that money it would be nice to feel immersed in the world of a signal box instead of just a cartoon lever frame and block shelf with a signal box diagram on a plain background.

Which is all very negative, but it does simulate block working very very well, a lot of effort was put in to simulating things like the Southern's routing codes and Southern and Western practices regarding call attention and so on. You can do a lot, blocking back and all sorts, junction working is simulated very nicely and the frames and their locking are very accurately simulated. If it's the best you can get, and for most people it probably is the best you can get, it'll give you a taste of what absolute block and mechanical signalling are like and it would certainly allow a novice to gain practical knowledge of how AB signalling works and how lever frames operate.
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