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| Timetable List to show only trains in area 09/01/2012 at 07:07 #26955 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
I'd like to suggest that, in addition to "Hide entered trains" on the Timetable List (F4) > Timetables tab, there be another choice named "Only trains in area", which would reduce the usual enormously long list to just those trains in the current area - much less time wasted in scrolling. This would give an alternative entry to the timetable editor beside the Train List, and also reduce dependence on the Train List (for those who regard it as cheating). Since the two filters "Only trains in area" and "Hide entered trains" are exactly opposite in function, the best implementation of this would be to make them both radio buttons (i.e., alternatives). Any takers? Last edited: 09/01/2012 at 07:09 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 09/01/2012 at 07:52 #26960 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
I'm a timetable writer for some of the devs and I've never had a problem with scrolling through the TT, if you type the train ID you are looking for then the list will jump to it. Additionally I do not want either of the filters, I want to see a full list, however, the buttons are there for those that do want them, they work fine, they ain't broke... why fix them!
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| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 09/01/2012 at 10:10 #26970 | |
postal
5265 posts |
" said:Since the two filters "Only trains in area" and "Hide entered trains" are exactly opposite in function, the best implementation of this would be to make them both radio buttons (i.e., alternatives).Maxand No disrespect to the core point that you raise, but that comment indicates that you haven't yet been involved deeply enough in the background work required to create a sim and associated TTs to understand the full extent of the basic functionality available in SimSig and why that functionality is there. The "hide entered trains" button performs a totally different (rather than "exactly opposite"  task to the task that an "only trains in area" button would carry out and this task works at two levels.Despite Noel's comments, I find that the "hide entered trains" radio button is enormously valuable to TT testers (if not writers). For the TT tester it is very helpful to use the "hide entered trains" button to check that all the trains that have been written into the TT and which have been due to appear have actually made their entrance. The writer can then check whether there is anything wrong with TT or rules which has precluded the train entering. Without that function, the testing of the TT would require a long print-out, a pencil and a tick by tick approach which is perhaps alien to way that you would like to automate SimSig! It can also alert the user to a problem caused by the user's own incompetence. For example, the Euston sim requires the user to obtain a slot for certain entries into the Downside Carriage Sidings. If the user obtains the slot unnecessarily, the slot does not automatically drop after a period of time and exits from the DCS are not possible while the slot is granted. This leads to a queue of trains building up off sim. If the "hide entered trains" option is check-marked, it is immediately obvious when the TT is checked that trains due to enter at the DCS have not entered and the operator can then work out why and take the necessary steps to allow the train(s) to enter. SimSig is a complicated animal (and yes, the documentation isn't always as comprehensive as a commercial operation would require) but the functionality that is already there is usually there for a constructive reason. This reason might not be obvious at first glance but it is normally there. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Didcot, BarryM |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 09/01/2012 at 10:21 #26972 | |
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GoochyB
222 posts |
" said:They are mutually exclusive but they are not exact opposites - trains that have already entered and left the area will not be a part of either list. Log in to reply |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 09/01/2012 at 13:42 #26980 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks for all the responses so far. I had no idea this was going to prove such an interesting topic. GoochyB: Quote: They are mutually exclusive but they are not exact opposites - trains that have already entered and left the area will not be a part of either list. Quite true. I wasn't considering trains that had already entered and left. It's a pity the Timetables list fails to distinguish between (trains that have already entered but are still in the area) and (trains that have already entered the area but have since left), when the "Hide entered trains" option is unchecked. All that grey stuff cluttering up the table does my grey matter no good at all. On thinking about it, it seems the designers want us to use the Train List's Edit Timetable option to substitute for the Timetables tab in displaying timetables for current trains, a totally unsuitable tool IMO. For one thing, the Train List's columns are totally unsortable, a real PIA. For another, the Timetables list (using Exeter as an example, so this ain't universal) allow sorting by 4 different criteria - ID, Entry/Departure time, Entry location, and Exit location. This would be a great boon to sorting out trains on the panel, except that there's no way to limit the display to only those trains that are present! Thanks postal for explaining why you find "Hide entered trains" so helpful in debugging timetables. However, neither you nor GoochyB have actually said whether in your experience an "Only trains in area" might be useful in timetables, playing or any other SimSig activities. Last edited: 09/01/2012 at 13:45 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 09/01/2012 at 13:46 #26981 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
I think I need to explain the internals a little bit. A timetable (as in, what is in a .wtt file) consists of some metadata and a list of let's call them "schedules" to avoid confusion. A schedule consists of a train ID, train length and electrification etc., entry details, and a list of calling points. It's the thing that you get a list of in the timetable list. Each schedule is either "unused" or "used". At the start of the simulation, when the timetable is loaded, all schedules are set to unused. The used schedules are the ones that are grey and are hidded when "hide entered trains" is selected. When a train enters the simulation, its schedule is copied to the data structure representing the train and is then changed to the used state. The same happens when a train runs to a new timetable because of the "next" activity or is created by a divide. This is why editing an entered train's schedule in F4 doesn't affect the train - the train is using a copy and not the original schedule. F4 edits the original; F2 can be used to edit the copy, but that doesn't affect the schedule seen in F4. Schedules also get marked as "used" for other reasons. Notably, when a conditional train is tested and the simulation decides not to run it, and when a train is prevented from entering because of a rule like "does not run if". These trains haven't entered, but they will appear in grey or disappear when you hide entered trains. In summary, this feature wouldn't be trivial to provide because there isn't a direct link from a train back to its schedule in the timetable and because the schedule a train is following might not be in the timetable at all (it could have been renamed or even deleted, as well as either version being edited). Log in to reply The following user said thank you: alan_s |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 09/01/2012 at 13:54 #26984 | |
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GoochyB
222 posts |
In using F2 it has never occurred to me that I might want to see the same trains listed in F4. It might be useful to be able to sort the F2 list, but that is a different matter - as Clive points out, the F2 and F4 screens although showing apparently similar information are actually quite different. Log in to reply |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 09/01/2012 at 14:03 #26985 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
" said:Thanks postal for explaining why you find "Hide entered trains" so helpful in debugging timetables. However, neither you nor GoochyB have actually said whether in your experience an "Only trains in area" might be useful in timetables, playing or any other SimSig activities.To answer the specific point you raise regarding my response, I can't see any useful purpose in the additional functionality of an "only trains in area" setting through F4. The basic information is already available by clicking on the TD on the display and more background information by going through F2 where you can right click and bring up the TT anyway - and, of course F2 only has the trains in area anyway. There may be one or two more clicks on the F2 route rather than going through the F4 route, but when you are only wanting to access the information about once every 10 minutes or longer, that is not a significant problem. If the F4 route is then displaying the "only trains in area" setting you can't access the TT for the next working which is typically what I want to look up so it would be a positive disadvantage for the way that I run things. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 09/01/2012 at 17:21 #26994 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:On thinking about it, it seems the designers want us to use the Train List's Edit Timetable option to substitute for the Timetables tab in displaying timetables for current trains, a totally unsuitable tool IMO. To display a Timetable, you just click the Train Describer. " said: For another, the Timetables list (using Exeter as an example, so this ain't universal) allow sorting by 4 different criteria - ID, Entry/Departure time, Entry location, and Exit location. The 'Exit Location' option is fairly recent (Brighton/Oxted later I think), the others are universal. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 09/01/2012 at 20:56 #27005 | |
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BoxBoyKit
166 posts |
I must agree with what I think seems to be the general trend. The only reason I really use F4 is to see what if there are any interesting trains in the timetable, such as Charters or NR Test Trains etc, or to see when the next train is due into the area. Any information regarding trains already in the area is available through F2 or clicking on the TD. Alternatively, as already said, you can, imo, very easily and quickly search for any train in F4.
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| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 10/01/2012 at 04:45 #27030 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Interesting feedback, thanks all. I didn't realize that there wasn't a simple one-to-one link between a train and its "schedule", as Clive pointed out: Quote: this feature wouldn't be trivial to provide because there isn't a direct link from a train back to its schedule in the timetable and because the schedule a train is following might not be in the timetable at all In that case, I guess that's the killer blow to this idea. Surely there must be a workaround to avoid the need to leap between two lists (F2 and F4) continuously, simply to get the advantages of each. On reflection, what I really need the Timetables list (F4) is the same as postal wrote: Quote: If the F4 route is then displaying the "only trains in area" setting you can't access the TT for the next working which is typically what I want to look up so it would be a positive disadvantage for the way that I run things. If a train's berth disappears for some reason and I need to know the "next working" TT for when it terminates, I need to find it in a hurry too. I don't know how you experienced guys go about this, but one obviously needs to start with the last (i.e., current) working TT to find the next working TD. Having found it, one could immediately type it (unfortunately, not copy it, which would avoid typos such as I for 1 and 0 for O) into a sticky note or into any unused signal berth, then click it to show the next working TT ahead of time if required. Therefore I disagree with postal's statement that "you can't access the TT for the next working" if "Only trains in area" is being applied. Last edited: 10/01/2012 at 04:47 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 10/01/2012 at 08:28 #27032 | |
agilchrist
258 posts |
If you cant identify the train from the trains list, then you should stop the train and get the driver to the phone, he soon identified himself. I know a number of sims have a few bugs whereby the headcode does not move and you end up with **** and I know many are fixed on the next release version but by playing the games you tend to get used to it happening and you end up accommodating what's about to happen. I have seen this happen on a real panel before where a train makes an unusual move and the screen goes to **** so I would say this is realistic to real life. If only everything was as perfect as it seems to be required, I wonder what the world would come to. Blessed are the true believers, for only they shall walk the Path, and they shall be welcomed unto the realm of the Ori and made as one with Them. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Meld |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 10/01/2012 at 08:43 #27033 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
" said:which would avoid typos such as I for 1 and 0 for O) into a sticky note or into any unused signal berth, then click it to show the next working TT ahead of time if required. All reporting numbers are in the format <number><letter><number><number>. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Meld |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 10/01/2012 at 09:22 #27035 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
" said:Therefore I disagree with postal's statement that "you can't access the TT for the next working" if "Only trains in area" is being applied.The full statement was "If the F4 route is then displaying the "only trains in area" setting you can't access the TT for the next working". Of course I can find it by going through a route like Maxand's, but I could do that without having the F4 window open at all. I've lost track of the number of times the ground changes whenever any comment is made pointing out a problem with the latest great idea but there we go. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Meld |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 10/01/2012 at 10:07 #27038 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Just remind everyone to play nicely. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 10/01/2012 at 17:30 #27072 | |
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Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:Timetable List to show only trains in areaAm I the only person here thinking "Isn't that what F2 is?" " said: If a train's berth disappears for some reasonI assume you mean "TD" (Train Describer), not berth, and it doesn't do it for some reason- there will be a reason for it happening- for example, you've routed a train via shunt signals. Learn the area and be ready to put Sticky notes in when you know the TD is going to vanish. " said: I don't know how you experienced guys go about this, but one obviously needs to start with the last (i.e., current) working TT to find the next working TD.I go into F2 and scan down the 'previous location' for probable trains. For example, if I have an undescribed train on the Exeter Sim on the Up Main between Exeter S.D. and Cowley Bridge Junction, I scan down the list looking for trains with a last location of "Exeter St. David's", and then deduce which train it is by first asking a) is the train moving, and b) is there already a train with that TD attached. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Aurora, Meld, UKTrainMan, BarryM, maxand |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 10/01/2012 at 22:59 #27089 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
" said:Just remind everyone to play nicely.XXXX Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 11/01/2012 at 06:37 #27094 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Steamer: Quote: maxand wrote:Okay, what I really meant was "If a train's TD (Train Description) disappears for some reason". This can be either because the berth remains but the TD is replaced by "xxxx", or in some cases the berth itself disappears, along with the TD, i.e., there's not even a "xxxx", just a red stripe. This could happen if I accidentally Cancel a berth. Forgive me if I have the terminology wrong here. My understanding is that there is only one Train Describer per panel (in real life) or per sim. Each Train Describer controls and updates the data displayed in its berths. This data is referred to as the Train Description (TD), aka Train ID, and colloquially and erroneously known as the headcode. Clive cleared this issue up here. It seems correctly defined here but this Wiki entry is titled Train Describers when IMO Train Descriptions would be more appropriate, as there should only be one Train Describer per panel. Apologies for sounding pedantic here, but if this is not correct please say so as I would like to get it straight. Whatever the cause of the TD being lost, the important thing is to recover it. I agree with Steamer that curr/prev Location is the best method at present. Last edited: 11/01/2012 at 06:39 by maxand Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 11/01/2012 at 12:48 #27097 | |
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BoxBoyKit
166 posts |
To my understanding...Berths can't be lost, on the basis that they are part of the diagram, such as signals. They merely become empty. As far as I can see, it appears that everything you want to be able to do is already do-able, and there doesn't seem much point in complicating things so that you can do the exact same thing multiple different ways.
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| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 12/01/2012 at 02:25 #27140 | |
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Aurora
183 posts |
What Steamer wrote above is exactly what I do if I lose or am likely to lose an onscreen TD.
Nil. Log in to reply |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 12/01/2012 at 02:46 #27141 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
I also understand that if a TD goes AWOL on a real panel (for whatever reason), the signaller is required to stop the train at the earliest convenient signal and confirm the correct TD with the driver before allowing it to continue on its merry way.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 12/01/2012 at 06:34 #27146 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
BoxBoyKit wrote: Quote: To my understanding...Berths can't be lost, on the basis that they are part of the diagram, such as signals.If I route a train through shunting signals instead of running signals, the TD in the berth changes to xxxx, but the berth is still visible as a black insert. Does this mean that the berth is empty, or that the berth should have a TD but the Train Describer doesn't know which one to assign? On the other hand, if I R-click a berth with or without a TD and choose Cancel, the whole berth disappears; it doesn't simply substitute xxxx for the TD. Does this not mean the berth has been lost from the VDU? Of course, if it were a wall panel with fixed berths, the berth would remain there as it is a physical object. I can't see why there are two outcomes in SimSig, one where the TD is replaced by xxxx and the other where the berth vanishes completely. Of course, I can create or re-create a berth at any signal, by interposing. This does get confusing. 
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| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 12/01/2012 at 06:58 #27149 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
What people are saying is that the Berth and the TD are two separate things. The Berth is there and either occupied or not occupied by something, normally a TD or the non-described train indicator of ****. If the Berth is not occupied then it reverts to plain line display in most cases. However, the Berth is no "lost" it's just empty. Whether in any case the Berth is empty or shows **** will be dependent on how the logic is programmed. I.e. if Berth A is empty and train triggers the step to Berth B then the empty Berth will step with no TD, the logic says "this train is not described so I'll insert ****". However, the logic may say- only step if A is occupied in which case **** will not appear in B. Equally where there is no step programmed from A to B then either the TD will stick in A till manually removed, or there will be a dummy step to say delete the TD in lieu of the step to B. As I say what happens where will be dependent on how the developer has coded it. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 12/01/2012 at 08:56 #27154 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
Panels, of course, always show the berth (usually a black "window" if empty). IECC/MCS/Westcad only show a berth if it's actually occupied. The Siemens things at Bournemouth and Havant are unusual in that they always show berths, whether occupied or not (as an aside, the screens also have a grey background instead of black - I'm not sure how they managed to deviate from the standard). On IECC/MCS/Westcad the signaller can't click on those berths like one can in SimSig. They are accessible by keyboard or the trackerball interpose/cancel by signal (TBIC). As there are no keyboard commands in SimSig, being able to click on the berths was the next solution - though we can interpose/cancel by signal. Thus, if a TD is "lost", the berth is of course still there and is still fully accessible by interposing via the signal. The only exception to this is where a berth has no associated signal - for example, a platform with three TD berths where the middle berth doesn't have a signal. But in that situation you'd be unlikely to want to interpose into the middle berth so that is mostly an irrelevant exception. I should also note that SimSig is the only simulation I've seen where TDs are completely independent of the train. While this makes it realistic, it certainly causes no end of confusion for new users and even experienced users on a new simulation. Perhaps because they have too high an expectation of the way train describers work - they really are not that clever, especially where shunting is involved! SimSig Boss Last edited: 12/01/2012 at 08:59 by GeoffM Reason: Last para added Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Timetable List to show only trains in area 12/01/2012 at 10:57 #27161 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks Peter and Geoff for explaining it. OK, that's clear now. A berth can be occupied (black window) or empty (plain red/white line). If occupied, then by a train for which a TD (train description) exists (e.g., 1B23), or by a non-described train (xxxx). One last question: Does this mean one cannot interpose into an external berth because it's just there for information (controlled by another operator) and not for editing? Last edited: 12/01/2012 at 11:32 by maxand Reason: clearer summary Log in to reply |