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Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 06:12 #27508 | |
maxand
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![]() From the Exeter sim: "1S91 delayed at Newton Abbot due to police attendance, expected to depart at about 15:30" (in about 10 minutes). The driver of 1S91 phones to ask me whether I intend to replace (set to red) signal 11. I reply No, quite forgetting about 1A90, also scheduled for P3. I re-route it to P1, then wish I could contact the driver of 1S91 to let him know I now intend to replace 11 and set a route from 111 to 13. The problem is, there is no menu option in F2 > Train List > Signalling Options to do this, yet IMO there ought to be. Should this be added as an option? Right now, all I can do is create an ACOA (adverse change of aspect) by clearing the route between 11 and 13, and be penalized for it. (In the pic, 11 is flashing due to 120 seconds approach locking.) Equally, it ought to be possible in SimSig to contact the driver of 1A90 to let him know I will be re-routing him to P1. See also: Exclude stationary trains from approach locking? Do you wish to replace signal back to danger? Last edited: 17/01/2012 at 06:26 by maxand Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 06:17 #27509 | |
jc92
![]() 3651 posts |
i have previously raised this in the features wishlist. the post will be hiding somewhere
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 06:24 #27510 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
You mean this one? Sorry, missed it in my earlier search. I like Josie's suggestion. ![]() Last edited: 17/01/2012 at 06:34 by maxand Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 06:43 #27511 | |
Peter Bennet
![]() 5377 posts |
" said:In the real world that tends to be done by a "Theatre indicator" attached to the signal head which displays a number or code letter telling the driver where he is heading. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 17/01/2012 at 06:43 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 08:12 #27519 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Thanks Peter. This raises the question: If I re-route the train to P1 instead of P3, assuming Theatre indicators are commonplace, should I be penalized for routing to an incorrect platform (Performance Analysis, F5)? (added) Just googled Theatre Indicators. Fascinating. Invensys seems to have the market. I wonder if they will ever replace multi-aspect signalling? Evolution or revolution? (2009) Last edited: 17/01/2012 at 08:28 by maxand Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 08:34 #27520 | |
Late Turn
![]() 697 posts |
The Driver doesn't really care which platform he's run into, as long as he can get to where he needs to go next. The nearer the messroom, the better! However, the passengers waiting for the train do care, and I suspect the penalty relates to the last-minute inconvenience to them which will hopefully be outweighed by the delay minutes saved. (if you edit the timetable in advance via F2 - equivalent to updating the passenger information systems! - you won't receive a penalty).
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 08:35 #27521 | |
Firefly
![]() 521 posts |
Quote:should I be penalized for routing to an incorrect platform (Performance Analysis, F5)?Yes, Because of the following:- Great Aunt Mable had a heart attack, Mrs Simmons from Bovey Tracy missed her connection at Exeter St Davids, was late for her interview, didn't get the job and now she's had to sell the children, and the twins Elizibeth and Tommy got trampled in the underpass during the stampede that ensued when all the passengers standing on platform 1 realised their train was just closing its doors on platform 3! FF ![]() Last edited: 17/01/2012 at 09:31 by Firefly Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, Aurora |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 08:59 #27523 | |
AndyG
![]() 1842 posts |
" said:I usually say yes and replace the signal.....always keep all your options open. Only needs 1 extra action to do so, you can always reset it at anytime anyway, and you never know what else may happen. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 09:00 #27524 | |
Firefly
![]() 521 posts |
Quote:Just googled Theatre Indicators. Fascinating. Invensys seems to have the market. I wonder if they will ever replace multi-aspect signalling?Dorman have the market these days with their LED products. Theatre Indicators is one of those slang words you love so much. The correct name is Standard Indicator for a large one which will be associated with a main signal aspect and Miniature Indicator for the smaller ones that are associated with shunt or subsidiary signals. In the old days they used to be Multi Lamp route indicators and the letters and numbers were made up by lighting the correct 35w Pygmy Lamp. (Very complex wiring arrangements). Then in the 80's the Fibre Optic Route indicator was born, this displayed the letters using a single MR16 50w Halogen lamp and used fibre optic wires to make the indication (the westinghouse/invensys type). Finally Dorman came out with an LED version. Incidentally Banner repeaters are also Fibre Optic or LED lit. (Older ones were electro Mechanical) FF Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 09:03 #27525 | |
jc92
![]() 3651 posts |
" said:unless im drastically missing something, theatre indicators, as with feathers, stencils etc, complement MAS signalling, not replace it. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 09:32 #27527 | |
Firefly
![]() 521 posts |
Quote:unless im drastically missing something, theatre indicators, as with feathers, stencils etc, complement MAS signalling, not replace it.They do, they'll never replace it. The next step is no signals at all. Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 11:48 #27533 | |
Peter Bennet
![]() 5377 posts |
" said:I suspect the penalty relates to the last-minute inconvenience to them which will hopefully be outweighed by the delay minutes saved. (if you edit the timetable in advance via F2 - equivalent to updating the passenger information systems! - you won't receive a penalty).It does Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 12:28 #27534 | |
Stephen Fulcher
![]() 2055 posts |
The problem with approach locking not applying to stationary trains is how does the interlocking know that the train has stopped? In SimSig we can all look via F2, but no real Signaller in a power box can do so (mechanical boxes can sometimes, but not always, see trains standing at their signals). When no route is set from a signal, the overlap will time out after a preset time, usually but not always, 2 minutes after the last track circuit or axle counter before the signal is occupied, but that is a time calculated by the designer as to when a train could reasonably be expected- to have stopped at the signal, and theoretically is no guarantee. With a signal off, the interlocking will be "expecting" a train to pass that signal at the proceed aspect, hence the timeout when you replace it to danger in front of the train regardless of the speed of the train. In real life Signallers can, and often do, contact drivers to inform them that they will be replacing the signal to danger in front of them, for instance by asking the relevant Station Staff at Newton Abbot in this case to tell the driver to phone the signal box, or by using Cab Secure Radio to contact the driver directly if it is fitted. The signal will still time out however. In this incident above, you have had your chance as stated above to put the road back, when the driver first telephoned to say he was delayed. AndyG has the best method of working here, which is one I follow too. If you always say you will be replacing the signal whenever there is a delay, and then replace it, then there are options for running other trains. If you leave the signal off then you have effectively stitched yourself up until the delayed train departs. Last edited: 17/01/2012 at 12:33 by Stephen Fulcher Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 12:57 #27544 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Thanks Stephen, Peter and Andy for clarifying this issue. So if I always replace the signal, I will always get 120 seconds approach locking (unavoidable, due to the interlocking mechanism), but not incur an ACOA penalty provided I do it within one minute of responding to the driver's call. Fine. Last edited: 17/01/2012 at 12:58 by maxand Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 15:39 #27551 | |
mfcooper
![]() 707 posts |
" said:So if I always replace the signal, I will always get 120 seconds approach locking (unavoidable, due to the interlocking mechanism), but not incur an ACOA penalty provided I do it within one minute of responding to the driver's call. Fine.As we get every time at work a driver phones in delayed somewhere. You give a driver in real life an ACOA and be wary, he may asked to be relieved from duty due to the shock, and management will *not* be happy... ![]() Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 15:47 #27553 | |
Stephen Fulcher
![]() 2055 posts |
In the instance maxand was referring to, there is no problem because the driver will have been told during the initial phone call that the signal will be replaced, so will be expecting to see a G-R COA. However, also be wary because if you say yes and then take too long about doing it, you will get an ACOA penalty anyway, so when you do say yes, make sure you pull the route straight away. Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 18:32 #27564 | |
DriverCurran
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Maxand You will get which ever timeout applies to that signal. Some signals will be as little as 30 seconds and some could be 3 or 4 minutes depending on what the timeout in the real life box is and therefore what the developer of that simulation has coded into the simulation. Paul C You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 20:28 #27574 | |
Steamer
![]() 3958 posts |
DriverCurran said:You will get which ever timeout applies to that signal. Some signals will be as little as 30 seconds and some could be 3 or 4 minutes depending on what the timeout in the real life box is and therefore what the developer of that simulation has coded into the simulation.As a rule of thumb: 120 seconds for main signals, 30 seconds for shunt signals (including subsiduary signals). The only Sims that time out for longer are (I think) parts of CScot and Trent. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 20:41 #27576 | |
AndyG
![]() 1842 posts |
Think there's some at 240 secs on Sheffield, in the Aldwarke-Masborough Jns area. I guess these longer time-outs are related to higher line speeds/stopping distances.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Last edited: 17/01/2012 at 20:43 by AndyG Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 21:25 #27579 | |
Firefly
![]() 521 posts |
Quote:I guess these longer time-outs are related to higher line speeds/stopping distances.Distance between previous signal and the signal that's been replaced. Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 21:43 #27581 | |
jc92
![]() 3651 posts |
" said:Think there's some at 240 secs on Sheffield, in the Aldwarke-Masborough Jns area. I guess these longer time-outs are related to higher line speeds/stopping distances.all the signals protecting aldwarke junction have a 240 second timeout, as do quite a few controlled by cowlairs duty 1 around eastfield "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 23:42 #27593 | |
Firefly
![]() 521 posts |
I was out and about earlier when I posted that short response. The proper answer is to refer to GK/RT0063 on the railway group standards website. To save you the trouble:- Quote:
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Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 17/01/2012 at 23:59 #27596 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Thanks to all and particularly Firefly for pointing out the variation in approach locking time - a useful reference. We have all gone a bit off-topic here, so I would like to conclude by reiterating my original wish to see an extra command added to signalling the driver to warn him of an impending COA (change of aspect), not just waiting for him to ring in, and am glad that at least one other forum member supports this. If we use our imaginations to pretend that theatre indicators alert a driver to redirection, there is no need in SimSig for an extra signalling command to do this, and I am willing to wear a penalty for re-routing to a different platform, as some inconvenience to passengers is inevitable. Last edited: 18/01/2012 at 00:03 by maxand Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 00:42 #27601 | |
UKTrainMan
![]() 1803 posts |
" said:" said:I can only get Signal 450 to give me 240 seconds approach locking on either route (to 432 or 737), but it's understandable that it does do it what with the sharp corner before it.Think there's some at 240 secs on Sheffield, in the Aldwarke-Masborough Jns area. I guess these longer time-outs are related to higher line speeds/stopping distances.all the signals protecting aldwarke junction have a 240 second timeout, as do quite a few controlled by cowlairs duty 1 around eastfield Same goes for the numerous locations on CScot, lots||of||sharp||corners. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Last edited: 18/01/2012 at 00:52 by UKTrainMan Log in to reply |
Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 04:38 #27616 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Here's one more example of why being able to signal a driver directly to prevent ACOA might be useful.![]() 2A39 is scheduled to stop at Dawlish Warren platform but I mistakenly routed it down the main line. I realized my mistake before receiving a phone call from the driver, so want to warn him to expect replacement of the signal, followed by a redirection after approach locking terminates. Okay, so I could just sit on my hands waiting for him to stop the train and ring me, but I figure that in real life I would pre-empt this by calling him first, particularly if the train was still approaching. Wouldn't it be more realistic to be able to call him ahead of time like this? Maybe select from a list of possible directions "expect next signal to be replaced" or whatever terminology you gentlemen use. Last edited: 18/01/2012 at 04:55 by maxand Log in to reply |