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| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 04:53 #27618 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
Just on a previous point, Late Turn said in post #6: Quote: (if you edit the timetable in advance via F2 - equivalent to updating the passenger information systems! - you won't receive a penaltyThanks for the tip. So, editing the destination platform to a different one in F2 while the train is en route would be equivalent to making an announcement "The train will be stopping at Platform 1 instead of Platform 3. We apologize for any inconvenience." No penalty! Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 06:03 #27620 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
On another previous point, I said earlier: Quote: So if I always replace the signal, I will always get 120 seconds approach locking (unavoidable, due to the interlocking mechanism), but not incur an ACOA penalty provided I do it within one minute of responding to the driver's call. Fine.One obvious exception to this policy is where a train stops unexpectedly somewhere along a main line (e.g., Teignmouth in Exeter), with no way to divert any traffic around it. There's no point in replacing the signal, because there's not a darn thing to be done here and there's no overlap that might interfere elsewhere. So I might as well not replace the signal and just sit pretty. Last edited: 18/01/2012 at 06:06 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 06:40 #27622 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
maxand, in your first post (Post #25, in this thread) of three successive posts(??), you've shown when you made a not uncommon error (as in I've seen others do it before on Exeter, and probably even done it myself before) of, perhaps, overlooking the stop at Dawlish Warren in the timetable and wrongly routed the train through the through line. You're suggesting a feature be added allowing some form of communication with the drivers to advise them to expect an Adverse Change Of Aspect ("ACOA"). Firstly, the normal procedure in this case would almost certainly be to just wait for the driver to come to a stop at the signal and challenge the route, which they would almost certainly do, then advise them to expect an ACOA and wait for the correct route. Secondly, I believe drivers are not allowed or at least not meant to engage in communications with the signallers whilst driving, as they need to concentrate on driving. There may be exceptions to this in an emergency situation (for example, as happened during the Esher incident) but the need/want/desire to drop a route in-front of a train due to signaller error is not one of those. Even if you could communicate with the driver to advise them to expect an ACOA, it most likely wouldn't save you any time to make it worthwhile as you would still get a time out (120 seconds approach locking) from the moment the train is occupying Track Circuit TDM203A, which is the TC on the Down Main at Starcross station, since they would see Signal DM203A drop from Green to Double Yellow. So in-fact, in your case (Post #25, in this thread), you're far better off just to wait for the driver to stop and challenge the route, as, for starters, it wouldn't affect your score as much as an ACOA would since you are able to warn the driver to expect it when they have stopped to challenge the route. " said: Just on a previous point, Late Turn said in post #6: That is pretty much correct. The announcement I'd expect to hear is Quote: Your attention please, this is a platform alteration. The xx.xx [TOC] service to [destination] will now depart from Platform [x] or something very similar to that. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Last edited: 18/01/2012 at 06:42 by UKTrainMan Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 07:55 #27632 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks UKTrainMan, that solves that problem. I should have realized that if protocol allowed signalmen to contact the drivers first, rather than the other way around, this would probably already have been incorporated into SimSig. (added) Of course, there are other ways to avoid an ACOA, such as this one I just noticed. 
Last edited: 18/01/2012 at 08:18 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 08:19 #27635 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
As a real life bobby, i find we do often call drivers up and request to replace signals back to danger or to a more restrictive aspect in real life. Or even after telling a driver that we won't need to replace the signal only to find a little latter that you do. I think the function of being able to contact a driver in the sim would be a good one, after all I'm contacting drivers for various things and not just for replacing signals on a daily basis via CSR.
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| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 08:57 #27642 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:As a real life bobby, i find we do often call drivers up and request to replace signals back to danger or to a more restrictive aspect in real life. Or even after telling a driver that we won't need to replace the signal only to find a little latter that you do. I think the function of being able to contact a driver in the sim would be a good one, after all I'm contacting drivers for various things and not just for replacing signals on a daily basis via CSR.As I understand it, drivers aren't supposed to be contacted if they're on the move unless it's an emergency. CSR is limited to certain areas so out in the wilds of Wiltshire, for example, I understand there is little hope of contacting the driver quickly as there is no CSR, NRN takes several minutes to establish a call, and it could take equally long to phone a driver on his mobile once the number has been obtained. So the easiest option is to let the driver call you from a signal post telephone. Of course, all that will change with GSM-R. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 09:19 #27644 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
Geoff, in an ideal world that would be correct about the CSR. But speech calls are put in both ways virtually for every call with the train on the move, remembering that the drivers cab has a speaker so they can listen to the 1st part of the message without lifting the handset, In so giving time to bring the train to a stand. But as I said most speech calls are conducted on the move. I don't think we could run as many trains on our patch if all trains had to come to a stand 1st before speaking without badly effecting performance. Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 10:15 #27648 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:Geoff, in an ideal world that would be correct about the CSR. But speechNot saying you're wrong - perhaps other signallers could give their opinions. We have an ex-Midland region signaller-trainer now working for us and the attitude in his boxes and in his training was that they would not speak to a driver on the move unless it was absolutely necessary. This was on the basis that he shouldn't be distracting attention away from the driving role, especially critical on the approach to a red signal or station stop, or even slowing for a PSR/TSR. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 10:36 #27651 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
" said:We have all gone a bit off-topic here, so I would like to conclude by reiterating my original wish to see an extra command added to signalling the driver to warn him of an impending COA (change of aspect), not just waiting for him to ring in, and am glad that at least one other forum member supports this. I think if we're going to do this it would be good to simulate the real-life situation. Firstly, unless there is cab secure radio (which only exists where passenger trains run under Driver Only conditions, and then only for the specific DOO trains), it's not possible for the signalman to contact the driver direct. Prior to about 1982 (which would catch the earlier timetables on many sims) there was no radio at all. Even where CSR exists, there are rules restricting its use. So in general, informing drivers you're going to put back on them needs a message to be passed via other staff. So the signalman can only initiate putting a signal back when the train is at a manned location. I imagine the sequence would look like this: 1 Phone the location concerned. 2 Options available when you place call to a manned location include "Advise driver signal is to be returned to danger"; selecting it brings up dialogue box where headcode is entered. 3 After call is ended, wait. Possibly for quite a long time. Maybe for a time that can be set individually for each location (to represent distance from supervisor's office/mess room/etc to where the train is). Conceivably a random element too (some staff move quicker than others and, certainly at a passenger station, there's likely to be passengers with enquiries that have to be dealt with on the way). 4 Phone call from staff member/driver confirming that driver of <train> is aware signal is to be returned to danger. At that point the 1 minute window opens in which the signal can be put back without penalty. Any thoughts? Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 10:44 #27653 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
" said:" said:A prime example of the difference between how it's supposed to be done and how the real railway did/does it to keep the job moving. I know it shouldn't happen in theory, but it does; it always has & it always will. Just like shunting in Willesden Brent when I was yard supervisor. I think about 60% of the wagons we handled were stencilled "not to be loose shunted" and they were all sent merrily off, cut after cut, quite possible to see 2 or 3 cuts still rolling down the yard (and we didn't have chasers braking them either). The only traffics we never did that to were "toxic tanks" (50t liquid chlorine tankers) and the flask (the nuclear fuel traffic to & from Sellafield). No-one ever said a word; the yard couldn't have run if we'd done it properly.Geoff, in an ideal world that would be correct about the CSR. But speechNot saying you're wrong - perhaps other signallers could give their opinions. We have an ex-Midland region signaller-trainer now working for us and the attitude in his boxes and in his training was that they would not speak to a driver on the move unless it was absolutely necessary. This was on the basis that he shouldn't be distracting attention away from the driving role, especially critical on the approach to a red signal or station stop, or even slowing for a PSR/TSR. Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 11:31 #27657 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:I know it shouldn't happen in theory, but it does; it always has & it always willUntil a driver SPAD's, blames the siggy for calling him whilst approaching the signal and NR throws the book at the siggie. I've not bothered trawling through the rules and standards but IF the rules clearly state that CSR should not be used whilst a train is in motion except for an emergency (and I thought they did) then any signaller disobeying that rule is taking a big risk. People have been sacked for much less than being involved in a SPAD. Quote: No-one ever said a word; the yard couldn't have run if we'd done it properly.I think we live in a different world these days. I used to travel everywhere in the cab and no one said a word. Only about 15 years ago I got a driver to drop me and my test team off at a level crossing which I knew he would get stopped at because we were working there. I probably couldn't type the answer that I'd get from a driver these days, unless of course I had a cab pass and a special stopping order in my hand. Could you imagine what would have happened if one of us had slipped and hurt ourselves whilst getting out of the cab? Don't get me wrong, I hate the way that things have gone, but these days I do things by the book. FF Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 14:26 #27674 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:Quote:I think that CSR / GSMR can be used on the move IF the driver feels it is safe to do so.I know it shouldn't happen in theory, but it does; it always has & it always willUntil a driver SPAD's, blames the siggy for calling him whilst approaching the signal and NR throws the book at the siggie. I'll say no more but I'm sure someone on here will know what I mean when I say Bourne end Jn. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Last edited: 18/01/2012 at 15:41 by headshot119 Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 15:31 #27681 | |
postal
5265 posts |
Section 3.3 of Rule Book TW1 (available on line here). "3.3 Train radio equipment - general a) Using the train radio system safely Driver - You must not use the radio when the train is moving if you might become distracted and put the train in danger." No mention of when a signaller should/should not use the equipment except that the signaller must answer an emergency call immediately. As it has a bearing on previous posts in this thread, 3.5 about the NRN is also interesting. Among other instructions the Rule Book says: "Signaller - If you cannot call the driver on the NRN, you must not send messages to the driver through anyone else. Instead, you must arrange for the driver to contact you direct." “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 18/01/2012 at 15:34 by postal Log in to reply |
| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 16:42 #27685 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
" said:Signaller - If you cannot call the driver on the NRN, you must not sendTherefore you can ask someone (like platform staff) to get the driver to ring you. However, the platform staff cannot pass on any details from you to a driver (eg: pass signal at danger, examine the line, etc) Last edited: 18/01/2012 at 16:42 by mfcooper Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |
| Re: Signal driver to warn of adverse change of aspect 18/01/2012 at 23:39 #27744 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
John in TW1 3.3 the word of importance is 'might' therefor it's up to the the drivers discretion whether to stop there train and then open a speech call or continue to drive their train and open a speech call if they believe it will not cause a detraction. I'm also aware that CSR could only be used in sims in the old NSE, srathclyde or merseyrail areas from using timetables from the mid 90s onwards and that not all the stock that ran through those areas was fitted with it. Last edited: 19/01/2012 at 03:41 by Hooverman Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |