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I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 06:08 #29782 | |
maxand
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This is my first try at using ARS, so hope you don't mind some more questions and observations. I finally got the hang of basic ARS but still many things not mentioned in the Wiki section or in the Swindon manual. What are all the green slots in Swindon used for? The manual doesn't mention them. Why do all ARS codes start with L and not, for example, A? How do I know where an ARS area begins and ends for a particular line? The only way I can tell that ARS has "caught" a train is when a route magically appears ahead of it. Is there any way to tell ahead of time when ARS will conk out if it can't complete setting a route, e.g., when another train (also ARS) is temporarily blocking the route? Right now I seem to have to wait till F2 tells me XXXX is waiting at a red signal, which wastes time. If ARS is so helpful, when might I need to disable it as opposed to simply setting the next route segment manually? "You need to request permission to send trains to Didcot Power Station." How do I do this, please? No slot there. Unfortunately, not enough explanation here. jc92's post in this category talks about BLOKs. Thanks to the WembleySub manual, I now have an inkling of what BLOKs are all about. Before that I imagined that a BLOK was a really capital bloke, just like all you guys. However, I can't see why anyone might want to interpose a BLOK when SimSig creates its fair share of them and more. After looking at the ARS options, it would seem sensible to me, accustomed to non-ARS, to choose ARS popup information displayed when one clicks a description. This, it turns out is our old friend Show Timetable, aka Location List, under yet a different alias. But if I select this option, wouldn't I miss out on seeing Routesetting status displayed in Messages? That stuff's handy to know too - wouldn't want to lose those advisories. ARS seems to make this sim run so automatically it even gets boring at times. Does anyone prefer to play it non-ARS? BTW, it seems the hot keys don't work any more in 2.227; on the other hand, Views 1-9 do, now. Cheers and thanks again for all useful feedback. Last edited: 22/02/2012 at 06:38 by maxand Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 07:01 #29783 | |
Peter Bennet
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" said:This is my first try at using ARS, so hope you don't mind some more questions and observations. I finally got the hang of basic ARS but still many things not mentioned in the Wiki section or in the Swindon manual. If you mean the ones at the interface with Bristol, they are for wrong line running when chained. The green slot-like circles at Causeway just indicate the crossing gates are closed (local gate box). " said:
I presume "line" so LUPMNW (for example) indicates Line-UP-Main-Wantage " said:
The ARS areas are contiguous but can overlap, that is two or more ARS sub-area buttons may be needed to be on for a specific route to be called. The way to tell is to set a route and then cancel it- the relevant Sub-areas will the drop out (flash) - that's a safety measure to ensure that ARS does not set routes again in what might be a safety critical event. ARS generally works on a 2 Green aspect system- that is the 2 signals immediately in front of the train will be green and where there are streches of Automatic signals it may take a while for the next manual signal to be activated by ARS. Not sure I actually followed the question completely so may have mis-answered. " said:
ARS has regulating code built into it and will try and get trains running in the right order, giving priority as required. However, it's not a perfect system in reality and the skill of the signalman is to know when to intervene and overide the system, setting the preferred priority before the ARS does it. I recall someone saying that for real signalmen often switch off (Simsg- via F3 options) the ARS for Freight train classes because they do not trust the sysem. " said:
As above, and if you feel like doing an area yourself- ARS was added to Edinburgh(for example) primarily as an aid to solo play rather than as an ARS sim per se. " said:
By phonecall " said:
You can force all trains entering at Reading to use the DM or the DR lines by use of the BLOK code- there is a bug and some of the other normally recognised coes are not working. " said:
You can choose whatever setting you prefer- "Delay" is fun as you get the colours " said:
I was not aware that was a problem- will look into Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 22/02/2012 at 07:04 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 07:29 #29784 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Thanks Peter. I don't understand everything you've said but I'm sure it will all become clear in due course. Didcot Power Station - I get it now finally, thanks. Open Telephone Calls > Place call > Didcot Power Station. I understand the Bristol slots now. Shouldn't need them in solo play. Quote: You can choose whatever setting you prefer- "Delay" is fun as you get the colours I get you. F3 > Display > Train Describer mode > Delay. I guess each form of delay is displayed in a different colour. Is there a colour legend key anywhere? Much obliged. Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 07:40 #29785 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
![]() Got confused again, here. While ARS was enabled, clicked both LC buttons to turn them off. Both LRLFDID and LUPDID began to flash, so I clicked them to re-enable ARS. Now I can see 6M22 is magenta, 6V30 is not. I thought all trains here were processed by ARS. Does this mean ARS on 6V30's route has failed? Not sure what to do about this. (added) From the ARS page in the Wiki: Quote: It is possible to manually route individual trains - right click on the Train Describer, select 'Make train Non-ARS', and the TD will change from cyan to magenta. Right clicking and selecting 'Make train ARS' will change the train back.That explains what I see, but isn't this back to front? I would have expected that making a train ARS would give it the same colour (magenta) as the ARS codes. ???? Last edited: 22/02/2012 at 07:43 by maxand Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 08:35 #29786 | |
Stephen Fulcher
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ARS can be disabled for each train as required. If a train has a cyan TD then the ARS will set routes for it based upon the conditions programmed into it for that particular class of train. If it is magenta then the ARS will "ignore" that train and you will have to set all controlled signals for it manually. If you want the ARS to act upon a train with a magenta TD, right click on the TD and click "Make Train ARS". The ARS will then act upon that train whenever it is in an area with the ARS enabled. The cyan and magenta colourings are standard codes on IECC and similar systems and are replicated as such in SimSig. For instance at Leamington Spa which is a WestCad system with no ARS functionality, all TDs show as magenta. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 09:07 #29787 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
" said:That explains what I see, but isn't this back to front? I would have expected that making a train ARS would give it the same colour (magenta) as the ARS codes. ????If you mean an ARS-disabled train is pink while a ARS-enabled subarea is also pink, then yes that is a bizarre arrangement. But I can assure you that those are the defined colours, as Stephen has said. " said: Is there any way to tell ahead of time when ARS will conk out if it can't complete setting a route, e.g., when another train (also ARS) is temporarily blocking the route? Right now I seem to have to wait till F2 tells me XXXX is waiting at a red signal, which wastes time.Yes, there is a way. By looking at the screen and taking preemptive action instead of acting after the event. SimSig Boss Last edited: 22/02/2012 at 09:08 by GeoffM Reason: Emphasis Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 09:42 #29789 | |
Steamer
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" said:If you mean the ones at the interface with Bristol, they are for wrong line running when chained. The green slot-like circles at Causeway just indicate the crossing gates are closed (local gate box). Just to add that there is also one at Melksham, which you wil need to request to allow a route to be set towards Melksham/Bradford Jn. maxand said: I thought all trains here were processed by ARS. Does this mean ARS on 6V30's route has failed? Looks like you've cancelled a route that had been set for 6M22, which means that it has auomatically been made non-ARS. maxand said: clicked both LC buttons to turn them off Clicking on those buttons has no effect. They will turn white not long after a route has been set, to say that the barriers are down, and will turn hollow again when there are no routes set across the crossing, and the relevant track circuits are clear. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 09:46 #29790 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Thanks Geoff, Stephen and Steamer. So it seems that all trains entering an ARS-enabled area are taken under ARS control until this is breaks down or is cancelled for some reason. One last question - is there any type of train that can't be made ARS by the signaller, e.g., are somehow specified in the TT that they must be routed manually? Hope you don't think this is a ridiculous question. I appreciate what Peter Bennet said earlier about switching off ARS for freight trains. Thanks again. Last edited: 22/02/2012 at 09:47 by maxand Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 09:48 #29791 | |
Peter Bennet
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There are various idiosyncrasies with the ARS and I'm not sure I've ever fully explored all the facets and foibles of the system. Also the SimSig ARS module has undergone significant alterations recently (I think current SwinDid is built with the new module) ant it's a lot more intuitive that it used to be. Via the f3 options you have global settings for various things such as enabling/disabling by train class - also whether ACI works or not. Each possible route from a signal is allocated to one or more ARS sun-areas and all allocated sub-areas must be on for a route to set- it's an AND test, if any is off then the route will not be set. For safety reasons routes that ARS will not set (e.g sidings, call-on) are still allocated to a sub-area so pulling a route will still switch it off. When you cancel a route any approaching train will be disabled from ARS as well as the ARS sub-area. As you point out this changes the colour of the TD/display. Manually routing a train off planned route can also cause ARS to be de-allocated (though the Sub-Area will not drop out). ARS in certain circumstances is now intuitive enough to deal with off-planned routing and may enable itself- or allow itself to be manually enabled again in the new routing. The train may have to be established on the new route first. I have seen examples where the train simply refuses to be re-allocated to ARS and cases where a seemingly de-allocated train still runs to ARS and vice versa- never quite worked out the exact circumstances and not always possible to reproduce- probably should have and then reported. Note also that ARS is driven by the TD and not the train as such- so if you insert a TD at a signal (where that TD would be expected in the natural course of events) then the route will set even if the train is not yet in-Sim. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 10:15 #29793 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
" said:" said:That explains what I see, but isn't this back to front? I would have expected that making a train ARS would give it the same colour (magenta) as the ARS codes. ????If you mean an ARS-disabled train is pink while a ARS-enabled subarea is also pink, then yes that is a bizarre arrangement. But I can assure you that those are the defined colours, as Stephen has said. It wouldn't surprise me if this was a hangover from the days when the VDU interface was being designed. I suspect there may still have been a number of CRT-based train describers around (this would've been early - mid 1980s); where they'd been replaced it was generally with dot-matrix LED displays. Both used a blue-green sort of colour (exact colour varied somewhat), so it would've seemed natural to specify cyan as the normal colour for train descriptions. Then ARS had to grafted in to the system. That's my guess anyway. I'm sure I've said before that the standard is pretty much unchanged from the original and my late father's papers include a copy of the spec, from around 1983 or so (it's up in the loft at the moment so that date is from memory). Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 10:36 #29795 | |
Josie
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" said:" said:To activate hotkeys you need to press Shift+Hotkey. Works fine for me so I'm guessing that's the bit you've missed. Wiki page on hotkeys. Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 10:46 #29796 | |
Steamer
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maxand said:After looking at the ARS options, it would seem sensible to me, accustomed to non-ARS, to choose ARS popup information displayed when one clicks a description. This, it turns out is our old friend Show Timetable, aka Location List, under yet a different alias. But if I select this option, wouldn't I miss out on seeing Routesetting status displayed in Messages? ARS routesetting status is displayed at the top right of the 'ARS Pop-up information' window. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 11:05 #29797 | |
Peter Bennet
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" said:" said:Struck me as the explanation but as this had been discussed in one of Max's other threads and he had then re-written the manual more clearly I discounted it." said:To activate hotkeys you need to press Shift+Hotkey. Works fine for me so I'm guessing that's the bit you've missed. Wiki page on hotkeys. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 11:26 #29798 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
" said:" said:The cyan colour is more readable than the pink - though it's the pink you ought to pay more attention to as you have to route it manually! Using cyan for the subareas would probably have conflicted with other signalling colours ("A" buttons, though a different shade of blue) so maybe that's why pink was chosen. Hmm, "A" buttons blue = automatic; cyan trains = automatic. I don't know what the original buttons would have looked like on Three Bridges panel where it was first trialled - only the legend on the drawings which may not be true, but labelled as "Automatic Route Setting Equipment Hole" where the screen was supposed to go." said:That explains what I see, but isn't this back to front? I would have expected that making a train ARS would give it the same colour (magenta) as the ARS codes. ????If you mean an ARS-disabled train is pink while a ARS-enabled subarea is also pink, then yes that is a bizarre arrangement. But I can assure you that those are the defined colours, as Stephen has said. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 11:29 #29799 | |
postal
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" said:Thanks Geoff, Stephen and Steamer.Max One more thing you need to watch is that some circumstances stop ARS setting a route. I can't say that the circumstances are the same from sim to sim so I'm not saying these comments are universal but I have seen ARS not set a route because: 1) The train is routed into a platform which is already part occupied by another train. Happens a lot at the West End of Edinburgh. You have to keep your eye on things and manually set the route (or get a phone call when you have taken your eye off the ball). Can't remember whether you get a warning message to help you avoid the situation. 2) The train is routed into a siding or yard that is not ARS-enabled. You will then get a message in the message window as the train approaches the decision-point reminding you that 0X00 needs a manual route to be set. This works in reverse as well as trains entering at some locations require the signaller to set the first route sector so that the train can enter the ARS world. Failure to keep up again results in an anguished phone call. The key thing to remember is that the real railway characterises the capability as the signaller's assistant not the signaller's replacement. It is still up to the signaller to ensure that things are properly regulated. And even in the real world with their greater development resources than a freeware simulation has, the software is still prone to error. When the signalling at Edinburgh Waverley migrated to a new system including ARS 4 or 5 years ago one of the main jobs for the men on the panels covering the station itself was to watch the ARS and step in early when ARS was clearly on the way to setting up a Mexican. ("Mexican stand-off" - a technical railway term for a situation where two trains are signalled on opposing routes until they come face-to-face and there are no options for either to proceed unless one train is reversed back to the previous set of points which takes a lot of time and effort and causes delay to a lot of other trains). Peter's Edinburgh sim is so realistic that you can trick it into mimicking reality and doing that from time to time. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 22/02/2012 at 11:30 by postal Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 11:30 #29800 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
" said:maxand said:Actually, the ARS version of timetable information was subtly different from the non-ARS version; the routesetting status being the main difference. However, the two variations have since been combined in to one window which simply hides the ARS information for non-ARS simulations. SwinDid is the old version with separate windows.After looking at the ARS options, it would seem sensible to me, accustomed to non-ARS, to choose ARS popup information displayed when one clicks a description. This, it turns out is our old friend Show Timetable, aka Location List, under yet a different alias. But if I select this option, wouldn't I miss out on seeing Routesetting status displayed in Messages? Of course, in the real thing, you'd get the three lines (actually 1-8 but we don't do keyboard commands here) in the message window, not a pop-up. The flexibility is there for the user to choose realism over usability. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 12:37 #29805 | |
jc92
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the way ive frequently seen York IECC deal with ARSe is to collar signals at regulating points to prevent routes being set in front of, say a very late class 1. this also applies at the station to prevent the route setting when TRS is recieved. the only ARS function not replicated (although ive never seen it used) is a yellow status for using a timing pattern over a timetable. joe "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 13:06 #29807 | |
GeoffM
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" said:the way ive frequently seen York IECC deal with ARSe is to collar signals at regulating points to prevent routes being set in front of, say a very late class 1. this also applies at the station to prevent the route setting when TRS is recieved.SimSig does have "Run to STP" and a corresponding "Special Timing Pattern" box in the timetable editor. They aren't used to much these days but were common back in the days of ad hoc freight trains, eg coal trains from colleries, where the ARS wouldn't receive VSTPs and thus would consider the train as not in timetable. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: jc92 |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 13:23 #29808 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Thanks to all for more interesting replies. Finally found the delay colour coding page, here (and added a pic). Thanks Josie and Peter for jogging my memory about hotkeys needing to have the Shift key depressed before they work. Walked right into that one (again). Now added a tiny note to the manual to remind myself and any others. Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 19:52 #29818 | |
jc92
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" said:" said:ive just taken a look at this with the description "does not create train, instead this timetable is used for ARS special timing patterns.the way ive frequently seen York IECC deal with ARSe is to collar signals at regulating points to prevent routes being set in front of, say a very late class 1. this also applies at the station to prevent the route setting when TRS is recieved.SimSig does have "Run to STP" and a corresponding "Special Timing Pattern" box in the timetable editor. They aren't used to much these days but were common back in the days of ad hoc freight trains, eg coal trains from colleries, where the ARS wouldn't receive VSTPs and thus would consider the train as not in timetable. can someone explain how this works in terms of timetabling trains to run to the pattern etc. edit: noted how it works through trial and error also do trains running to such a pattern appear yellow on their description? "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 22/02/2012 at 19:53 by jc92 Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 20:34 #29819 | |
TomOF
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A special timing pattern needs to be applied to a train that is already in the area. It is similar to a timetable but simply tells ARS where it is going and how long it will take to get there from when it is applied, rather than what specific time past midnight it arrives.
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Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 20:39 #29820 | |
Peter Bennet
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" said:
I've never explored that so what did you do? Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 22/02/2012 at 20:43 #29822 | |
jc92
![]() 3649 posts |
created a timetable named UPSL (for train running via up slow from stoke jcn to Pbro) which runs trains on the up slow from stoke to Pbro set it as a special timing pattern right clicked on train 1A02 approaching from grantham and selected run to ARS special timetable i entered the timetable UPSL as the pattern i wished to use the train was duly routed onto the slow line and ran to Pbro the idea i was thinking was of a train running on reduced power running slow on ARS at short notice to prevent delay to following trains "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Swindon 23/02/2012 at 01:49 #29828 | |
Hooverman
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Just quickly going back to the early ARS at Three Bridges ASC. Having quickly looked at our indications on panel 5 there is not too much to see. There is five sub areas all controlled by standard rotary switches. Position one, manual (ARS OFF), position two, ARS/manual (ARS ON). The sub areas being, Area 1 Copyhold Junction Up, Area 2 Copyhold Junction Down, Area 3 Haywards Heath Down, Area 4 Haywards Heath Up and Area 5 Keymer Juction. The rotary switches having on or off proving lamps (white) also there are three ring proving lamps which I'm guessing were also white lamps. The only other thing we have on the panel is a ARS input keyboard. The equipment has been signed out of use for sometime but not disconnected as far as I'm aware. There are not many signallers left at TBASC that have worked it when it was in use to ask questions about it. But if I'm on the right shift I will make more enquiries. Regards Darren Log in to reply |