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Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street

You are here: Home > Forum > Simulations > Released > Liverpool Lime Street > Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street

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Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 17/06/2012 at 14:28 #33119
woodruff
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204 posts 		Can any one help with two questions? Both are in regard to a timetable I am thinking of running up, based on the wires between Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street being down or out of use for part or the whole of a day.

1 ] Virgin trains service. Would these all be hauled by a class 57 between Crewe and Liverpool ? Aka would a 57 pull the 390 to Lime street and then be uncoupled , a second backed on to the train. Train then leaves and the loco then becomes available for the next arrival.
2 ] What would happen to the Birmingham class 350 trains ? Would these just all be cancelled or would they be replaced by a bus or would London Midland replace the Emu's with either a loco hauled service or Dmu ? If Dmu then what type and if loco again what type ?
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 17/06/2012 at 14:54 #33121
UK RailFan
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17 posts 		Its most likely both services would be replaced by bus services
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 17/06/2012 at 17:50 #33123
Signalhunter
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177 posts 		" said:
Its most likely both services would be replaced by bus services
That'll make life simpler, for the (simulated) signalled.
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 17/06/2012 at 18:06 #33124
Peter Bennet
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5419 posts 		I think the reality would be as other have said; the service would be suspended completely. However if, as has been done before, you are talking about a hypothetical timetable of "what should happen in an ideal world- as they used to" then yes Cl57 Thunderbirds could be used - whether they can shove and be controlled from the leading 390 cab I don't know though. I suspect there would are not enough spare DMUs around to cover for the EMUs though.

Way back in the '80s dragging, planned and unplanned, was all the rage. I remember waking up on the WC Sleepers and realising I was at Manchester Vic with a class 40 on the front one morning. A planned drag that happened for quite a while was Nuneaton to New Street with the possibility of just about anything dropping on the front, Cl56s were regulars.

Locos dragging units were less common- normally immediately following a failure. Though on occasions, if they could run-round, you might get a drag event running for a few turns till they sorted something out. Now, they just cancel everything and to heck with it.

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 17/06/2012 at 18:19 #33125
woodruff
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204 posts 		Thanks for the info.

My idea was to to take my tt for the 18.05.2012 [ well v2 when I get it uploaded ] and have the scenario that either for the whole day or part of the day, say the first couple of hours till 1200 or so , have the timetable run with no electric wires available between Lime Street and Crewe. I thought the VT trains would be under 57 power, [ better if being dragged as they then have to run round at Lime Street using the neck siding].
Problem is the LM trains. My idea was for them to be covered by the tried and trusted class 37/4 or a class 67 from EWS with borrowed / begged mark 2 coaching stock, [ 4 coaches ]. Same as the VT trains, run round at Lime Street. Not sure if there would be enough stock for the normal service though ! But as this is Simsig lol anything is possible.
But before I get to that tt I had better finish of v2 of my 18.05.2012 tt !
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 17/06/2012 at 18:24 #33126
guidomcc
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246 posts 		By the sound of it, that is going to be an amazing TT. Go for it!
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 17/06/2012 at 18:35 #33128
woodruff
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204 posts 		Problem with the VT service would be the issue on the Lime Street sim of the lengh of the train. Current 390 is 213, with a 57 that goes to 233. Add another 57 and you got a lengh of 253. So I might have to "shorten" the VT train to get the signalling to work correctly. A lengh of 160 / 180m seems to work on loco hauled stock. I think the other Lime street tt [ not the origanal ] had reduced the train lengh to 80m to get the signalling to work aka call on's etc.
Class 67 with 4 MkII should be ok at a lengh of @100 / 120m.
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 17/06/2012 at 21:21 #33137
Steamer
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3997 posts 		According to Network Rail's Rules of the Plan, the longest platforms at Lime Street are:

6: 247m
7: 245m (plus an extra 5m to the signal)
8: 247m (plus an extra 4m to the signal)

I don't know if Sim lengths correspond to this, although they probably do.

woodruff said:
I think the other Lime street tt [ not the origanal ] had reduced the train lengh to 80m to get the signalling to work aka call on's etc.
Yep, I used 60m (approx. 3 coaches) plus a 20m loco to avoid said bug.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 17/06/2012 at 21:21 by Steamer
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 17/06/2012 at 21:33 #33140
AndyG
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1842 posts 		The sim TC lengths (from buffers) are:
P6 100+147=247m;
P7 100+55+30+50=235;
P8 100+147=247m.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 17/06/2012 at 22:10 #33141
postal
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5269 posts 		" said:
According to Network Rail's Rules of the Plan, the longest platforms at Lime Street are:

6: 247m
7: 245m (plus an extra 5m to the signal)
8: 247m (plus an extra 4m to the signal)
For the inquisitive readers of this site, the Network Rail Rules of the Plan are available for viewing or download at this page of their website. If you download the 90Mb zip file, you need to extract the files, then open roprhome.pdf. This displays a menu page which currently gives you the options of the 2012 Rules or 2013 Proposals.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 18/06/2012 at 06:24 #33143
jc92
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3701 posts 		i have a full set of sec CE timetables for 2004 covering lime street, in which, on sundays the VT services are booked diesel drags so it is theoretically possible (possibly might have been booked on Cl.86/DVT sets rather than a pendolino though
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 18/06/2012 at 09:10 #33148
woodruff
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204 posts 		Apologies for forgetting who had run up the other Lime Dtreet tt Steamer.
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 18/06/2012 at 12:24 #33150
58050
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2660 posts 		It's an interesting sceanrio, but when all is said & done it really depends on what year you are planning to write the tt for. Dragging was a fairly common thing in the 1980s where everything was nearly loco-hauled, plus the fact that there was a big enough loco fleet to handle the additional work, unlike today. If Virgin trains were being dragged then they would be worked by there own Cl.57s, which were also fitted with the special modified couplers to drag 'Pendolinos'. Furthermore I doubt today whether there would be sufficient loco-hauled stock available to substitute a full service & if it were worked by Cl.37/4s on hire from other TOCs then they would only work between Lime Street & Crewe, where all the passengers would then br transferred from that train to another Virgin Trains service from Crewe. If you want to write a timetable involving lots of loco shunts at Lime Street then me personally I would find it easier to write a 1980s timetable, rather than have the hassle of asscertaining what would be available today for dragging. During my time as a loco controller with Mainline Freight & then subsequently EWS loco hire charges were quite high. Clearance of the line charges where Network Rail or Railtrack as it was then was £2,000 irrespective of what type of loco did the clearance. Cl.60s were the most expensive at around £960, Cl.58s were around £890 & so on & that also didn't include the hire charge for the driver as well as not all companies knew everybody else's traction.
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 18/06/2012 at 13:34 #33151
andyb0607
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260 posts 		In July 2005 I went to Liverpool for a weekend and the Pendolino's were being dragged by Virgin Class 57's that weekend. Somewhere I have some photos of the join at Crewe.

After joining we went into Lime Street via Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown and Rainhill.

Didn't hang around to see what happened at Lime Street though. There were more pressing matters! Like finding the nearest hostelry and spending all those beer vouchers I had in my possession!
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 18/06/2012 at 16:19 #33156
Signalhunter
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177 posts 		Is it possible that some of the EMU's might be sub'd with a pair of 37's, working top and tail? I doubt there would be enough 37's to cover all the workings, though.

However, it would defeat the object (for your TT) as, apart from being longer, they would operate in a very similar manner.
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 18/06/2012 at 20:46 #33158
woodruff
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204 posts 		Thanks for the interesting information 58050.
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 19/06/2012 at 06:32 #33162
jc92
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3701 posts 		" said:
Is it possible that some of the EMU's might be sub'd with a pair of 37's, working top and tail? I doubt there would be enough 37's to cover all the workings, though.

However, it would defeat the object (for your TT) as, apart from being longer, they would operate in a very similar manner.
if this is a weekend why cant LM substitute some DMUs in?

that failed, theres plenty of 37s and 31s that could be top and tailed, but its more likely it would revert to a bus serivce
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 19/06/2012 at 09:17 #33164
58050
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2660 posts 		Woodruff the simplest timetable to write for this scenario would be to date it between 2001 & 2005. The reason for this is that if everything has to be diesel hauled between Liverpool Lime Street & Crewe, then Virgin Trains could not only use Cl.57s to drag there 'Pendolinos', but they still had a fleet of Cl.47/8s & several rakes of Mk.2D/E/Fs which were used on Cross Country services prior to the introduction of the whole of the 'Voyager' fleet. As a result would almost certainly eliminate the need to hire other traction & rolling syock from other TOCs. The Mk.2 coaching stock rakes would come from Oxley Carriage Sdgs at Wolverhampton ^ the Cl.47/8s based at Crewe Diesel (CD), & they could be used to supplement the service & the standard Cross Country Diesel Hauled train formation would be a Cl.47/8+7 x Mk.2D/E/F coaches, total length if the train would be 159m. Mk.2 coach being 20m in length & Cl.47s are 19m in length. Max speed 95mph.
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 19/06/2012 at 10:14 #33165
woodruff
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204 posts 		Thanks for the info.
I was was thinking of using the tt for the 18.05.2012 and just alter the VT and LM trains. I have now realised that there is a bit more to it than that ! Aka if I wanted to keep it as "authentic" as I could then looking at some of the posts it could not be done in real life as the services would be replaced with buses but also I have noted that the lengh of the 57+390+57 would be too long for the platforms at Lime st. There would also not be enough loco's to run the LM service as top and tailed. Plus the cost as you pointed out. As a non railway person I can now understand why they replace with buses !
I think that your idea of the 2001 - 2005 tt could be a runner though. The public tt should be not that hard to come by to run up a tt. Plus at least it gives more choice of stock !
So thanks again for the info.
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Re: Electric lines Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street 20/06/2012 at 20:56 #33208
woodruff
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204 posts 		Thanks for all the info in regard to my query about running up a tt based on my 18.05.2012 bu with loco hauled stock. It has given me food for thought for actually doing a second timetable but with loco hauled trains. So this should keep me busy for the rest of the summer.
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