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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance

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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance 21/11/2013 at 02:48 #51805
DaveBarraza
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Searched around a little to see if this had already been posted... Couldn't find.

5A31 has just left the car washer and 5Y76 is inside. Signal 451 is a high signal not a dwarf, so I'm thinking it should be at danger due to an occupied control line. -no?



Does eventually cancel when the train occupies the platform track circuit


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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance 21/11/2013 at 04:15 #51806
Hawk777
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Is this just last-wheel replacement? Some signals turn red as soon as the train passes them, while others turn red when the last wheel of the train has passed the signal; as I understand it, the reason for this is that it keeps the signal green until the guard, in the last carriage of the train, has had a chance to see it at green and thus not have to worry that the driver SPADed.
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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance 21/11/2013 at 04:32 #51807
GeoffM
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Last wheel replacement is logical, and exactly as Hawk describes; however, in this case it should have replaced a track later (2nd picture). SimSig requires all tracks to be track circuited but not necessarily shown. In this case I should have set the carriage washer track to be a dummy TC, not a real one, which would cause the signal to remain green until the first track beyond the signal cleared. In normal circumstances last wheel replacement would cause the signal to go back to red when the CW track became clear; however the CW track circuit doesn't exist in real life so it *should have* replaced one track later.
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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance 21/11/2013 at 13:13 #51817
DaveBarraza
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I had the old non-Loader KX still installed on a different machine, and I believe it works correctly the way you describe. (below)

I'm aware of last wheel replacement as a standard in the UK, but please to school the US signal guy:

If the "last wheel" control is being applied here - with no track circuit in approach it makes sense that you'd have to wait for the advance to be vacant before you could be sure that you aren't dropping the signal in view of the guard.
But... most if not all of the other high signals on this panel go to red as soon as the first wheel passes them. Why is 451 different?
In the case of the carriage washer there can be two trains in the non-track-circuited track. How can be be certain that with last-wheel control, that the signal will not be viewed by the following train?
I'm fairly certain that I've gotten messages from the second train the washer about an adverse change of aspect, but now that I'm looking for them of course it isn't happening!

Also, I see that there is an updated KX from Tuesday - will download.

Non-Loader KX:





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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance 21/11/2013 at 15:09 #51818
mfcooper
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Signal K451 is, as you said, the exit to the Carriage Washer. This is a very slow speed piece of railway line and is effectively a siding or yard area - not the main line. In these type of locations it was very common, if not necessary, for the guard travelling at the back of the train to still be able to see the signal at a proceed aspect as he passes it. Last Wheel Replacement is found where this procedure had to be followed.

And yes, the signal may well be viewed by the following train, but the driver of the second train can see the first train moving. In most cases, this would be enough for the second train not to try passing the signal. Especially at the slow speeds drivers must travel whilst they are inside and until they are clear of the siding or yard area.

In addition, drivers are trained up on each route they have to travel - they have to "sign" the route. I do not know if this includes whether a signal is last-wheel replaced or not. *If* they have to know this about K451, then the driver of the second train will be expecting it.

Last edited: 21/11/2013 at 15:15 by mfcooper
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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance 21/11/2013 at 15:25 #51819
dwelham313
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I can't speak for every TOC but at FCC we are not taught about last-wheel replacement. mfcooper is right in saying that the driver of the second train will see the first train moving and is not allowed to pass the signal until it returns to danger and clears again.

Also in this case the second train will need to stop just short of the signal anyway as this is where East Coast trains have their CET tanks emptied!

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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance 21/11/2013 at 15:49 #51821
clive
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My understanding is that last wheel replace is used where there's a reasonably possibility that the train will be propelled and so the driver is at the back. A carriage washer might well have coaches pulled in by a loco and then pushed out by the same loco. The guard is less of an issue, because they can expect signals to be put back before the back of the train reaches them.
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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance 21/11/2013 at 23:59 #51841
DaveBarraza
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Thanks to all for the informative responses!
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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance 22/11/2013 at 03:17 #51844
GeoffM
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" said:
In the case of the carriage washer there can be two trains in the non-track-circuited track. How can be be certain that with last-wheel control, that the signal will not be viewed by the following train?
I'm fairly certain that I've gotten messages from the second train the washer about an adverse change of aspect, but now that I'm looking for them of course it isn't happening!
There's logic in the code to (a) have the 2nd train ignore the signal until the rear of the first has gone past the signal (to prevent it driving off), and (b) prevent adverse change of aspect messages. However, I'm aware of occasions where this has not happened for some reason.

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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance 22/11/2013 at 07:31 #51847
Forest Pines
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" said:
The guard is less of an issue, because they can expect signals to be put back before the back of the train reaches them.
As an aside to this point, both of the preserved lines I've worked on - both using semaphore signals almost entirely - have followed the rule that a signal put back before the back of the train has passed it should be treated as an emergency stop signal. I've always assumed this was previously the case on the main line railways - at what point did it change?

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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance 22/11/2013 at 11:03 #51854
JamesN
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I'll imagine it was around the same sort of time that you stopped having signals replaced by the signaller, and went over to being replaced by track circuits
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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance 22/11/2013 at 11:11 #51855
Hpotter
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Also, since the time that MAS came into effect, as you wouldn't be able to see the aspect being displayed on the signal you have just passed from behind.

*Unless your using Railworks and then that's ok. :silly:

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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance 22/11/2013 at 20:33 #51878
Stephen Fulcher
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Preserved railways tend to expect their Guards to observe every signal, irrespective of where it is.

When I was a Signalman on the Severn Valley, we used to keep the signals off until not only the entire train had passed the signal, but until the entire train had passed over any points to which the signal applied. If we replaced the signal before the train had completely passed it, the Guard would be expected to apply the emergency brake.

Mechanical areas, certainly those without track circuits, rely on the position of the signals as the only "check" on the movement of trailing points (facing points are also protected by depression bars), so returning a signal over a trailing point could allow you to move it under a train, which is not desirable.

With the introduction of track circuits, this latter function was not required, since the points would be locked by the track circuit being occupied, and some form of route locking was generally applied as well, even if this was not visible to the Signalmen. For instance, in Cornwall where I work now, the installations dating back to the 1960s have electrical locking on the points, so even by replacing the signals to danger the approach locking and/or route locking would hold the point levers where they are preventing any movement in front of or under trains.

Where MAS is in use, the actual aspect of the signal has no real bearing on the locking of points as the approach locking and route locking do the holding of the points.

I am not up-to-date with rules that train crew have to follow, but if memory serves me correct the only thing the guards and dispatch staff have to satisfy themselves of is that the signal at the end of the platform is showing a proceed aspect when they give right away, and after that it is the sole responsibility of the driver to obey any signals. There are many type of unit (such as Voyagers) where there are no facilities for Guards to view signals once the doors are closed anyway.

How the signal is replaced is not really all that relevant as there would be little difficulty in designing every signal to be last wheel replaced if the rules so demanded, and in many early MAS installations platform starting signals often were designated last-wheel replacement.

It is possible that the treatment of signals being replaced before the train having totally passed them as an emergency signal may have been a symptom of the need to maintain the route locking rather than the initial reason for the signals being kept off. I know that it is common practice on some parts of the national network to replace semaphores before the back of the train has passed them completely, although in other places it does not happen.

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Signal 451 green with train immediately in advance 27/11/2013 at 17:07 #52069
kbarber
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" said:
Preserved railways tend to expect their Guards to observe every signal, irrespective of where it is.

When I was a Signalman on the Severn Valley, we used to keep the signals off until not only the entire train had passed the signal, but until the entire train had passed over any points to which the signal applied. If we replaced the signal before the train had completely passed it, the Guard would be expected to apply the emergency brake.

Mechanical areas, certainly those without track circuits, rely on the position of the signals as the only "check" on the movement of trailing points (facing points are also protected by depression bars), so returning a signal over a trailing point could allow you to move it under a train, which is not desirable.

With the introduction of track circuits, this latter function was not required, since the points would be locked by the track circuit being occupied, and some form of route locking was generally applied as well, even if this was not visible to the Signalmen. For instance, in Cornwall where I work now, the installations dating back to the 1960s have electrical locking on the points, so even by replacing the signals to danger the approach locking and/or route locking would hold the point levers where they are preventing any movement in front of or under trains.

Where MAS is in use, the actual aspect of the signal has no real bearing on the locking of points as the approach locking and route locking do the holding of the points.

I am not up-to-date with rules that train crew have to follow, but if memory serves me correct the only thing the guards and dispatch staff have to satisfy themselves of is that the signal at the end of the platform is showing a proceed aspect when they give right away, and after that it is the sole responsibility of the driver to obey any signals. There are many type of unit (such as Voyagers) where there are no facilities for Guards to view signals once the doors are closed anyway.

How the signal is replaced is not really all that relevant as there would be little difficulty in designing every signal to be last wheel replaced if the rules so demanded, and in many early MAS installations platform starting signals often were designated last-wheel replacement.

It is possible that the treatment of signals being replaced before the train having totally passed them as an emergency signal may have been a symptom of the need to maintain the route locking rather than the initial reason for the signals being kept off. I know that it is common practice on some parts of the national network to replace semaphores before the back of the train has passed them completely, although in other places it does not happen.

I think route 'locking' was the original reason signals were required to be kept off until the train had passed over facing points. Before track circuits became ubiquitous, routes were often held by a cascade of FPL locking bars (the 'depression bars' Stephen mentions, although a DB is a rather different animal). As I recall the Rule Book, the requirement to keep a signal off until the train had completely passed over applied only to facing points; however undesirable it might be to run through trailers (and there was a fair chance the signalman would get a heavy smack anyway, if moving the points as the train passed), the rule was primarily to prevent the opening of facing points with the attendant risk of derailment.

There is an installation like that at Bewdley South for the down direction route (signal 7) into the Back Platform. The first points encountered after passing the signal are 13, facing crossover to the Down Main, locked by 12 FPL. Then comes 16 points (Up Platform & Back Road) locked by 15 FPL and finally 18 points (Back Rd & Rock Siding, AKA Loco Shed) locked by 17 FPL. The locking for 7 is 17, 16, 15, 12
  • (then 11 Direction Lever, but that doesn't affect the points). Once the train passes 7, it's on bar 12 so it is impossible to put back 15 and thus release 16, which also means it's impossible to put back 17 and therefore move 18. The entire route is thus held. As the train runs on to each bar in turn, the route remains held. Once the rear of the train clears 12 it would, in theory, be possible to put that lever back and pull 13 crossover - by this time the train will be clear of the switch ends, so no risk of derailment. But 15 is still under the train so 16 remains locked, as does 17 (and thus 18).

    There is one potential problem with this layout. It's a fair distance between 13 and 16 points; enough, in fact, for a light engine (or two) to be between them but clear of all the FPL fouling bars. It is therefore possible for a signalman who's put 7 back early to unlock 12 and 15 before the engine reaches the fouling bar; not only 16 but also 17 (and thus 18) are now free, at least until the loco reaches the bar for 15s. Keeping the board off prevents any possibility of moving points under the train. In which case it makes sense, given the cautiousness of UK signal engineers & operators, to use putting back early as a last-ditch emergency signal.

    Track circuits and relay locking allow the (small) risk to be eliminated by arranging the locking on FPL levers so that, once a signal reading over them has been cleared, each TC has to be occupied and then cleared before the lever can be released. (I believe Bewdley North, being fully track circuited, has that sort of arrangement). But just because it can be done doesn't necessarily mean it is done in every case. Certainly, earlier TC installations often didn't lend themselves to such layouts (such configurations as a single TC that was both the berth track for a signal and extended well past it, through points that signal read over, so there had to be a fouling bar for any FPL anyway). It was only in routesetting installations that approach locking was provided as standard, hence the Rule Book provision that on a panel the switch/button could be restored as soon as the signal had returned to danger.

    Where locos were regularly attached to the rear of a train (whether to assist or just to save a path into a terminus) and signals were first-wheel restored, the Sectional Appendix would invariably note that the driver of the rear loco must be prepared for signals to return to danger before he had passed them. I'm not aware of any other indication that signals were first- or last-wheel replaced, other than signalmens' and technicians' local knowledge.

  • I think 16 had a separate lock on 7 so didn't have to be pulled as part of this sequence. But of course 7 required 16 pulled in any case and, although it would theoretically have been possible to pull it out of sequence, it never made sense to do so. I'm pretty certain the FPL on 16 had only a single notch so it couldn't be locked in the normal position anyway; certainly there was no signalled route into the up platform so no lock would've been needed. (Can someone with more recent knowledge than me confirm?)

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