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| Sheffield 1980's Era 21/12/2009 at 22:10 #421 | |
58050
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Forest Pines I have now started my 1984 WTT & there's an interesting issue within the first hour whereby 5J54 ECS DMU runs from Barnsley - Sheffield, attaches the rear parcels van off 1E66 News ex Manc'r Pic which arrives at 0220 & departs 0224. However 5J54 is booked to arrive at 0218 & depart at 0229 with tail traffic attached as 1J54! Do you have anything like that in your 1986 WTT? Because whatever way you look at this %J54 will be held outside Sheffield till 1E66 clears the platform, then 5J54 can go into the platform where the van has been detached. No win situation on this one. No other moves shown in WTT, so 5J54 must attach to it.
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| Sheffield 1980's Era 21/12/2009 at 22:10 #5224 | |
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58050
2659 posts
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Forest Pines I have now started my 1984 WTT & there's an interesting issue within the first hour whereby 5J54 ECS DMU runs from Barnsley - Sheffield, attaches the rear parcels van off 1E66 News ex Manc'r Pic which arrives at 0220 & departs 0224. However 5J54 is booked to arrive at 0218 & depart at 0229 with tail traffic attached as 1J54! Do you have anything like that in your 1986 WTT? Because whatever way you look at this %J54 will be held outside Sheffield till 1E66 clears the platform, then 5J54 can go into the platform where the van has been detached. No win situation on this one. No other moves shown in WTT, so 5J54 must attach to it.
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| Sheffield 1980's Era 21/12/2009 at 22:18 #5225 | |
Noisynoel
989 posts |
Would the station pilot shunt it onto the back of the 5J??
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| Sheffield 1980's Era 21/12/2009 at 22:52 #5226 | |
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58050
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Well I thought of that Noel, but you would still have a late start. The station pilot has already shunted vans off 3 trains at Sheffield between midnight & 0300Am Noel. Still I suppose the only excuse you could use is that as it is completely BR, then !J54 would be held for traffic. There are a few DMU's in section YC with 'tail traffic'. I will be e-mailing you a copy of this timetable on Christmas Eve. I started this one off as my 1991-1994 Timetable is saved on my new PC, but that developed a software fault & went back to the shop today. So working on the laptop only. Thought this one would be easier to work through as the 1980's era is available.
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| Sheffield 1980's Era 22/12/2009 at 12:08 #5247 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
There is a similar move in the 1986 timetable. However - going from memory, there isn't a specific 5J54 in the timetable, so I didn't have the problem you have. The timing is still pretty tight, though. In my timetable, the stock for 1J54 is provided by one of several overnight ECS DMU moves from Tinsley to Sheffield. I've taken those movements to consist of several DMUs each, partly to take care of seeding. The way I timetabled the move in question is: first, put the ECS for 1J54 in the siding at the north end of P1; run 1E66 into P1B and detach the van, then couple the empty DMU on to the van after 1E66 has departed. There's just enough time to attach before 1J54 is due to depart. You could do the same moves with your timings, although it would only really work if 5J54 was running slightly early. I've set the tail traffic to be a single van, to make shunting the return working easier. Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1980's Era 22/12/2009 at 16:06 #5259 | |
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58050
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The other thing I'm trying to establish is what services were worked b Cl.40's through Sheffield during 1983/1984. I know not all of the class had been withdrawn by hen. So far I've shown a Cl.40 working 1E66 to Cleethorpes & 4M22 return, but that's it. I'm trying to contact someone I used to work with on the railways who was a big Cl.40 enthusiast, but awaiting for him to call me back. I wonder whether Peter Bennet has any info on this Forest Pines, or anyone else reading this post. I'm searching the internet for any info. Nearly everything else I have a good idea on.
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| Sheffield 1980's Era 22/12/2009 at 16:54 #5261 | |
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TimTamToe
664 posts |
Have seen photos of Cl 40's at Sheffield from 1983/84 on Flickr but alas I haven't seen any with attached info about their exact workings. If I come across anything I will let you know. Tim Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1980's Era 22/12/2009 at 17:14 #5263 | |
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58050
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Yes I've seen photos as well n a few sites on the internet. This one is my main issue whilst creating this Timetable. DMU wise I've created Cl.101 2 car sets, Cl.110 3 car sets, Cl.120 3 car sets, Cl.124 'Trans-Pennine' 4 car sets & Cl.108 3 car sets. Not too sure whether I've missed any. Loco wise there'll be Cl.08 shunters Cl.20's, Cl.25, Cl.31, Cl.37, Cl.40, Cl.44, Cl.45, Cl.46, Cl.47, Cl.56 & Cl.58's in this Timetable. I haven't a problem allocating traction to trains, except Cl.40's. I did think aout leaving them completely out of this timetable based on 1984, but I'm sure someone somewhere may have asked the question where are the Cl.40's? I know there won't be that many on Passenger or Parcels trains, but if Cl.40;s did work specific trains through Sheffield during 1983/1984 then I want to make sure I've got that right. I know the Diton - Broughton Lane 'BOC oxygen tanks' was worked by a Cl.40 with a Cl.25, but that's a freight service. Looking at the 'Allocation History Book for BR Diesels' covering Cl.13 master & slave shunters at Tinsley yard, they had all been wuthdrawn by this time.
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| Sheffield 1980's Era 22/12/2009 at 20:06 #5277 | |
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ozzyd9001
131 posts |
theres class 114`s from lincoln. till the shed closed in the mid 80`s plus lincoln had an allocation of class 105`s to hope this helps plus when did darnall shed close? as i belive the dmu`s that worked from sheffeild were all allocated there? yours paul Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1980's Era 22/12/2009 at 20:43 #5280 | |
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58050
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Thanks for that Paul I've made a noe of that. Forest Pines have you experimented with your Sheffield 1986 timetable. What I'm getting at is between 0000 & 0600 there is about 6 parcels trains which detach vans at Sheffield. In the timetable I am writing I've stored them in DSS, US1 & US2. Now 1M65-1 "255 SX Parcels Glasgow Central - Nott'm PCD arrives at Sheffield with 11 vans in tow(I've ut a Cl.45/1 at the front) at 0532. The train stops to attach 2 vans & is booked to depart at 0545. Now I've looked at detaching the loco & sending it to US1 via S.91 signal, but doing it that way I run out of time & would present 1M65-2 with a late departure. Can't imagine the station pilot coming off Sheffield HS with 2 vans & reversing at S.142 signal & back the vans onto the rear in P5 because I suspect Sheffield HS would be full of DMU's at this time.I wonder how long a train can stand in the Centre Sdg. Cl.8=9m & BG=17m, total length of train would be 43m. Forest Pines have ou experimented in your 1986 timetable? Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1980's Era 22/12/2009 at 21:22 #5282 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
How about if the pilot has already collected the vans and is sitting at 142 when the train arrives. Straight on the rear, attach/detach/splash & the train is ready to go. That shouldn't take more than 10" from the time the train arrives.
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| Sheffield 1980's Era 22/12/2009 at 21:32 #5283 | |
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ozzyd9001
131 posts |
or the train engine could be changed at sheffield with the replacement engine and vans sat in the hs. this was used for the manchester harrich boat trains. as the train changed direction at sheffeild a 47 and 8 in 31 or 37 backs on to rear with buffet and 2 opens couple up then departs towards nottingham hope this helps paul just knew all those saturdays and school hollidays at sheffeild station would come in usefull?? hehehe Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1980's Era 22/12/2009 at 21:41 #5284 | |
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58050
2659 posts
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Yes I know Paul I've got a photo of 47526 'Norhumbria' coming of Sheffield HS in 1986/87 to work 1E87 forward (The European@ as it was known then, before changing to 'The Lorelli' when it went to Manc'r Pic). However in the 1983/1984 WTT 1S85 'The European' runs from Chesterfield via Barrow Hill, Beighton Jn, Woodhouse Jn & Woodburn Jn into Sheffield & 1E87 return goes back the same way & here is no engine change at Sheffield.
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| Sheffield 1980's Era 22/12/2009 at 21:58 #5285 | |
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ozzyd9001
131 posts |
yep traveled on that a few times from nottingham to sheffeild and vice versa so know the route well, i do know that some npccs where stabled in the HS during the day as well as dmu`s. yours paul Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1980's Era 23/12/2009 at 11:40 #5295 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
Hello there, It's a while since I've looked at the early-hours-of-the-morning part of the 1986 timetable; currently I'm alpha-testing the evening. However, in the 1986 WTT not very many of the overnight mail/parcels trains are specifically shown as attaching or detaching at Sheffield even when they are marked as changing timing load. Generally trains that change timing load at Sheffield also have long dwell times; therefore I've only carried out changes to the train formation when it is specifically listed as "stops to attach/detach" in the WTT. There are still a few of these; for example, in the evening there's a Yorkshire-Bristol parcels service that has separate Leeds and (I think) York portions joining at Sheffield. Some of the cross-country services reversing at Sheffield changed engine there, others ran round. Peter Bennett very helpfully provided me with info on the diagrams for hauled passenger workings. In general, there's only one engine waiting at Sheffield for its next cross-country move at any one time, so I've parked it in U2S, and put the trains in P5 or P8. I've also used P8 for Transpennine trains that need to run round. Generally I haven't worried too much about exact classes of loco in my timetable, as it doesn't really matter too much as far as Simsig operation is concerned. By 1986 there wasn't much variety in passenger working: you had 31/4s on Transpennine services, 47/4s and 31/4s on loco-hauled cross country services, and one 45 diagram left on the MML workings; plus an Immingham 31/0 on a Skeg excursion. As far as DMU workings go, I've treated all 1st-generation DMUs the same unless it's indicated otherwise in the WTT Timing Load; and assumed that all workings booked as DMU(A) in the WTT are 150/1s - these are limited to Leeds to Lincoln via Nottingham services, and the Sheffield-Chesterfield shuttle. There's a once-per-week path in the 1986 WTT for newly-built 142s to be delivered from Derby to Longsight, but I wasn't sure if any would have been running in service to Sheffield at that time. Darnall shed had closed by '86; but there are plenty of ECS DMU moves to/from Tinsley for refuelling instead. Expected release date for the beta version of the '86 timetable: December 31st. And I will stick to it, promise! Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1980's Era 23/12/2009 at 11:55 #5296 | |
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58050
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Thanks Peter if that was you who sent me the info RE; Cl.40's working through Sheffield in 1983/84. If not you well thanks to whoever it was who sent me that 'PMS'. Forest Pines, in your 1986 timetable, do all the local Class '1' & '2' DMU trains have the same headcodes during the day, subject to the routing of them,because in this section 'YE' WTT there is a page at the front dedicated to this:- Trains between the following points in both directions Sheffield & Leeds (via Barnsley)....................54 Sheffield & Barnsley................................54 Sheffield & Chesterfield............................55 Sheffield & Huddersfield (via Penistone)............58 Sheffield & Penistone...............................58 Sheffield & Ull.....................................62 Sheffield & York (via Pontefract Baghill)...........63 Sheffield & Leeds (via Moorthorpe)..................67 Sheffield & Sleaford/Boston.........................68 Sheffield & Doncaster...............................71 Sheffield & Retford.................................72 Sheffield & Lincoln.................................73 Sheffield & Cleethorpes (via Doncaster).............75 Sheffield/Retford & Cleethorpes (via Lincoln Cen)...79 Sheffield & Chinley/New Mills Central...............85 I suspect that all these trains willhave the same headcode throughout the WTT for te whole day. This may make things easier in compiling the timetable as well as playing this timetable. Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1980's Era 23/12/2009 at 12:42 #5298 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
Nope. In 1986 all the trains have sequential numbering for the last 2 digits. From memory the headcodes for Eastern Region DMU services are: 2Bxx: trains via Worksop 2Cxx: trains to Doncaster/Scunthorpe 2Fxx: trains via Penistone 2Gxx: trains via Barnsley (except Penistone trains) 2Hxx: trains to York via Moorthorpe 1Jxx: Leeds-Nottingham(-Lincoln) trains 5Jxx: Sheffield District ECS moves 2Rxx: trains to Grimsby/Cleethorpes via Doncaster 2Yxx: trains to Chesterfield The only Class 1 DMU services are the 1Jxx Sprinter services - apart from that early-morning Barnsley train that has tail traffic. Correction: there's also a series of paths for a Sprinter test train that are Class 1; I forget the destination letter. Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1980's Era 23/12/2009 at 12:46 #5299 | |
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TimTamToe
664 posts |
No worries, I know some were of the Cl40's Saturday services but thought might still give an idea and if Peter can't help anymore maybe that question and answer site i linked you in the PM might. I'll try and see if I can find any others but being a Southerner its not always easy to tell which routes would go via Sheffield lol. Tim Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1980's Era 23/12/2009 at 12:54 #5300 | |
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58050
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Loks like we were both typing replies at the same time. I've no doubt you will be releasing your 1986 Timetable before I wull be releasing my 1984 one. I'm looking forward to giving yours a go. I see in your last post your reference to Parcels trains at Sheffield. I'm doing my timetable slightly different. I suspect that if you compare the 1986 'section YE' WTT the nuber of Parcels trains & the number of attaching & detaching of trains at Sheffield would be reduced comared to the 1983/1984 'section YE' WTT I'm working from. Also if there is a reference in the WTT for a timing load to change at Sheffield, most of the trains stand for quite significant lengths of time whereby the train formations will change. The shortest stop over is for 1M65 2235 SX Glasgow Central - Nottingham PCD which is booked to attach & is shown in the WTT to arr. 0532 & dep. 0545. The timing load on ar is D385 = 11 vans & depart D455=13 vans. I've shown the train to be worked by a Cl.45/1. My thoughts would be an engine change at Leeds, with the @Peak' coming Holbeck returning to its home area being based at Toton & working 1M65 through to Nott'm. This part for me is important as I was a Regional Traction Controller for the best part of 12 years during my railway career. Therefore I do spend quite alot of time ensuring that the 'train types' tab whilst inputting info to make the timetable work is as accurate as I can get it. All of the other Parcels trains shown on the WTT I'm working from do allow sufficient time for the shunting to occur. 1S85/1E87 'The European' doesn't change locos at Sheffield in this WTT. In fact the train runs via Barow Hill, Beighton Jn, WodHouse Jn & Woodburn Jn in both directions. I haven't come across any loco changes at Heffield or run rounds so far. I've got as far as 0700am with the Passenger & Parcels trains so far. I'm going to complete this timetable in 3 stages. 0000-0800, then 0800-1600 & finally 1600-0000. For each section I'm doing the Passenger & Parcels trains services first, then followed by the freight trains & finally the local rea trip workings.
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| Sheffield 1980's Era 23/12/2009 at 13:00 #5301 | |
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58050
2659 posts
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Thanks for that Tim, the Saturdays Only loco hauled services won't be included in my timetable as it is based on weekdays. However I'M sure Cl.40's did apear on services through Sheffield during the week in 1983/1984. There wouldn't have been many as most of them were probably on freight duties by this time.
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| Sheffield 1980's Era 23/12/2009 at 13:11 #5302 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
You will have much more knowledge than me about the details of operations! Is there any reason why a train in the WTT would have the TL change at Sheffield, but not have one of the "stops to attach/detach" letters in the Sheffield time? Is this just a mistake in the timetable? If I get chance tonight I'll check the WTT and tell you what it actually says for the trains in question. There aren't any passenger services via Woodburn Jn and Beighton Jn in my timetable; there is at least one SO train routed that way, but my timetable is based on a Wednesday. I'm fairly sure 1S87 has an engine change, can't remember about 1E87. Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1980's Era 23/12/2009 at 17:54 #5306 | |
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58050
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An unscheduled loco change can happen at an unspecified point for any number of reasons. Chiefly if the train loco developed a fault at Sheffield & a replacement loco would be summoned to re-engine the train from Tinsley & thats providing the traincrew & the fiters based at Sheffield station xouldn't rectify the fault. Another way whereby an unscheduled loco change would occur at Sheffield & not be reflected in the WTT, but this applies mainly to freight, is where an engine gets changed-over to meet a maintenance pre-assignment. One of the jobs of a loco controller was to look at the loco's under his control on TOPS & check what locos were required at whatever depots for either exams or repairs. The maintenance control or Maintrol for that region, in Sheffield case York, in liason with the TMD's throughout the Eastern Region who apply pre-assignments to various loco's requiring exams & or repairs. The pre-assignment on TOPS would shown the hour, day & month the loco would be required to be presented at the TMD the pre-assignment stated. The loco controller would then allocate these locos to work trains back towards the area the pre-assignment showed.
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| Sheffield 1980's Era 11/01/2010 at 12:17 #5720 | |
moonraker
370 posts |
Going slightly off topic - I and a friend used to go on a day trip to York about twice a year in the late 70's / early 80's. This was an excursion run from Swindon which you had to book a seat on. It ran on sundays. Quite often it ran via the Erewash Valley so you could see most of the stuff at Toton albeit from a distance but once past Sheffield you could see Wath Yard again from a distance. Just wondered which line that would be ? I think virtually every one of those trips the train went via Normanton to get to York.
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| Sheffield 1980's Era 11/01/2010 at 13:33 #5721 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
That would be the original North Midland Railway line, which ran from Derby to Normanton via Rotherham. The Swinton-Normanton part of it closed in the late 80s, and isn't shown on the Sheffield sim in either mode, but until the early 80s it was a major through route. The lines from Sheffield north to Normanton and Moorthorpe diverged at Wath Road Jn, near the modern Swinton station; Wath Yard was on the ex-MSLR line from Mexborough to Barnsley which crossed under the Midland lines near Wath Road Jn and ran roughly parallel to the North Midland line. You can see a map of the Swinton/Mexborough/Wath area in the 1950s at http://www.npemap.org.uk/tiles/map.html#444,400,1 The railway line running roughly north-south is the line from Sheffield/Rotherham Masborough to Moorthorpe, and the line running off to the east is the ex-MSLR line to Hexthorpe Jn and Doncaster. The wigglier of the two lines heading south is the ex-MSLR line from Mexborough to Rotherham Central via Thrybergh Jn and Aldwarke Jn. Of the two lines running north-westwards, the upper is the North Midland Railway line to Normanton and the lower is the ex-MSLR to Barnsley. You can see Wath Yard marked on the map. Wath Road Jn is roughly in the middle, and from the alignment you should be able to see that the original line in the area was the one from Rotherham to Normanton. Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1980's Era 11/01/2010 at 14:27 #5725 | |
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58050
2659 posts
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Forest Pines, it is interesting reading the comments regarding these very early running Class 1 & 2 trains. I for one hasn't experienced this so far whilst running your 1986 timetable. The version of Sheffield I'm running is V2.995 & this was the version I used to create the 1991-1994 timetable, & is also the version I am using to write my Sheffield 1983-1984 timetable. At present I've entered all Class 1, 3, 4(Freightliner & Parcels), 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 & 0 trains into this timetable. I've only got the Tinsley yard trip workings & the Doncaster Depot coal trip workings to enter, & finally all the class 2 passenger services to do. Whilst creating these timetables I've never altered the sliders for late running etc, just left them at the default settings. Whether that makes a difference I don't know. The only slider I've altered during game-play is the one that determines the length of time taken to fix a fault or failure as in some cases I think it takes too long. But haven't experienced passenger trains running exceptionally early, not to the degree that some people have posted. I am assuming you are using the same version of Sheffield that I am using?
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