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| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 11:09 #59886 | |
kbarber
1764 posts |
" said:'Wrong direction movement' has a very specific meaning Max, which is distinct from reversing direction (although the two may well occur as a result of the same action). As I understand SimSig's workings, 'Reversing' is the act of changing the direction a train thinks it's facing. It can be done whether or not the train moves but it will affect the direction in which the train next moves. A 'Wrong direction movement' is a movement along a running line in a direction for which there are no signals to control the move. (So by definition there can be no wrong direction move on a bidirectionally signalled line.) But if there's a facing crossover it would be possible to set up a wrong direction move without any need to reverse a train. " said: Replying to kbarber:It occurs there may be terms like this that we use with gay abandon that are actually meaningless to non-railway people. Facing points are those which create a divergence between two routes in the normal direction of travel. Trailing points are where two routes converge. A trailing connection is perhaps a little colloquial, either a single set of points or (probably more usual) a crossover with trailing points in the line you're talking about. (On Kings X, among others, a crossover would be facing in the down fast but trailing in the down slow, hence my perhaps rather clumsy way of putting it.) I'll use Newton Abbot as an example of a wrong line movement without reversing. If, from Platform 3, you reversed the facing crossover between the main lines (892 points, to be exact) but leave the crossover into the yard (891) normal then PSAD a train at signals 11 & 669, the train will cross on to the down main and become a wrong direction movement - there is neither a signal nor a Limit of Shunt to stop it going on its merry way all the way to Dawlish Warren (including passing over the unsignalled crossover at Teignmouth, 888 points). For stashing a train you need to get rid of, Aston offers a (not very good) example, at Lichfield TV. I can't see any reason, at the moment, that you'd need to get following trains round one that was stopped at P3 (perhaps when Derby emerges...) but this is how it might work. You'd initiate the shunting sequence then draw the train forward to stop clear of the trailing connection (as it is for this movement) to the Low Level (TV22 points), then when you'd reversed the points (and having remembered to get the slot from LL, otherwise there's nothing to stop him sending a train on to the curve with unfortunate results :blush: ) setting it back to stand on the curve. Having got the queue of trains away that had built up, you then draw that train back off the curve (using the shunt instruction to stop it clear of 22 points again - you don't want it rushing off to No. 7 signal), but without passing a signal at danger - signal 9 is available). Then, after normalising the points, set it back into platform 3 again - this is a wrong line move until you get in to the platform, as there's no signal to control it and it's against the normal direction of traffic flow on the 'straight route' that you are using. Only when it gets into the platform and stops at signal AN162 does it become right-direction. Of course all this also relates to the point quoted above in your response to LateTurn - there may well be times when you don't want the train to proceed as far as the next signal. I suspect the reality at Lichfield is that TV7 is barely a train length from 22 points, so it wouldn't matter. It might even be that there isn't a train length there; in that case it definitely would matter because you'd need to PSAD at TV7 but you certainly don't want that train to keep going all the way to AS5. Apart from the time it would take in the section (and then coming back again) you have the little matter of reversing over an AHB crossing, a particular issue if it doesn't have wrong-direction controls. Of course you also need to decide what new timetable the reversing train should run to and make all those sorts of arrangements; this is 'hand of God' stuff, as IRL Control would be doing all that and telling the driver (and you) what description it should carry. IRL it's pretty easy, yell a couple of instructions out of the box window and brandish a handsignal or 2 as & when you're ready for things to actually move. It's such a pity the 'puter doesn't understand "draw forward clear of the points then drop yourself back on the curve when I give you the tip, I'll try and get you out and send you back to Brum when I can find a margin". Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 11:54 #59890 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:Okay then, I don't mind if Shunt forward is added to the list of Telephone Call options as long as error-catching code is in place to prevent it from being used as a substitute for PSAD.In what percentage of situations is that instruction both valid and required? The only time I can think of is when a train is stopped part of the way along a platform, ready to depart but waiting for the signal for more than two minutes, with a second unassociated train behind waiting to enter a platform that is permissive for non-joining moves, which is unable to fit behind the first train. In short, a situation I have had precisely zero times in many years of Simsig. Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 12:41 #59892 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Ah! Trailing connection = trailing points. Thanks Keith for the rest of your really helpful explanation. Playing Exeter (again, but different TT) right now. To Danny252: Well, it wasn't my idea to include it in the list of Telephone call options. I thought Reverse direction and proceed would do it all. But as I said, I don't mind if it is split into two separate orders. In my more limited experience, the application of Shunt forward would mainly be in platform work as you describe. If you're so expert that you don't allow yourself to be caught in such situations, then good for you. The rest of us might value such an order more and prefer not to use HOG to execute it. Last edited: 01/05/2014 at 12:49 by maxand Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 13:05 #59895 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
There's nothing about it that related to being "so expert". It's just a hugely unlikely situation except in the case where you have failure settings turned up high, causing lots of disruption - even then it's of very limited use.
Last edited: 01/05/2014 at 13:06 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 13:33 #59896 | |
postal
5269 posts |
" said:Okay then, I don't mind if Shunt forward is added to the list of Telephone Call options as long as error-catching code is in place to prevent it from being used as a substitute for PSAD.I'm sure the developers will take on board your graceful patronising. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 01/05/2014 at 13:34 by postal Log in to reply The following users said thank you: jc92, peterb, lazzer |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 14:26 #59898 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
" said:Okay then, I don't mind if Shunt forward is added to the list of Telephone Call options as long as error-catching code is in place to prevent it from being used as a substitute for PSAD.If you authorise a train to 'Shunt forwrad' then it will only do so as far as the line is clear or until the next stop signal. You are not authorising the train to pass a signal at danger. Give it a try, stop a train at a red signal and then authorise it to 'shunt forward' and see what happens. Noisynoel Log in to reply The following user said thank you: BarryM |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 14:30 #59899 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Noel, if you read my earlier posts you will see that is exactly the point I am making.
Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 15:21 #59902 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
" said:Noel, if you read my earlier posts you will see that is exactly the point I am making.So why then are you asking for error catching code to prevent it being used to get a train to passs a signal at danger. It does not allow that to happen so the relevant code is obviously already there! Noisynoel Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Sacro |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 16:11 #59903 | |
Steamer
3997 posts |
" said:It's not a question of level of expertise, it's whether the driver (who in this case is a computer and therefore stupid) gets himself into a position that would not occur in real life, in which case the Hand of God is appropriate for users of all abilities to use. (EDIT: Surely an inexperienced user would prefer the simple set of commands listed in F2 over a complex set of telephone exchanges?) Quote: Okay then, I don't mind if Shunt forward is added to the list of Telephone Call options as long as error-catching code is in place to prevent it from being used as a substitute for PSAD.I'm sure this has been said five times already, but Shunt Forward will never allow a train to pass a signal at danger. Quote: I hate editing timetables, since I'm always asked at the end of the session whether I want to save the amended TT and I usually can't remember which edits I want to keep or throw away, so if I've put him in the wrong place, I usually tell the driver to abandon the TT, reverse the train to a signal, reverse again and resume its original TT.Editing in F2 will only affect the train in the simulation, and not the entry in F4, as discussed in this thread. Quote: The trick is to find the minimum number of authentic instructions that when coupled together handle the maximum number of situations.I'd argue this has already been provided- Edit timetable in F2. You can specify a series of locations and activities, which the driver will then obey, just as in real life. Hence the message 'Driver has now been informed of timetable change' (Or words to that effect) when you close the editor. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 01/05/2014 at 18:42 by Steamer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: BarryM |
| More realistic CSR 01/05/2014 at 16:27 #59904 | |
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Hpotter
205 posts |
I'm not sure about how others feel about several attempts to re-invent the wheel, but I feel this is the process here. (Again!) I know this all comes down to experience and confidence when running a simulation, but I feel a pattern is emerging... If user generally have an issue with a function / procedure within SimSig, then by all means, ask away, but time and again this just comes back to the case of 'I don't understand / like function / want it changed' (delete as appropriate.) But if we go along the lines of adding more and more functions / features etc etc then everything else will then suffer. IE: F2 window has less functionality, but more options via the call interface, then you have to wait for the call to be placed / answered / acknowledged for example, this then means a user would have to remember what order things have to be done, oh, and what happens while your doing things, you can't be doing other things for the running of the simulation, so it all very quickly grinds to a halt. By retaining the functionality that we currently have, means that actions can be done quickly. (still depending on user level). I stand by the point of hosting simulations for all to join and see how things can be overcome. (Hopefully over the weekend too!) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: BarryM |
| More realistic CSR 02/05/2014 at 01:05 #59921 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:I'm sure this has been said five times already, but Shunt Forward will never allow a train to pass a signal at danger.OK. My concern was that since the term "shunt forward" doesn't mention passing a red at danger, some inexperienced person might attempt to use it that way and then wonder why it didn't work if no error pop-up appeared. But that's been taken care of. Summing up, the original purpose of this thread was to see whether introducing a separate CSR feature or combining CSR with Telephone Calls would enable more realism and functionality. Keith Barber and Hooverman among others have demonstrated how these issues are resolved in real life by verbal communication, hand signals and now CSR and its successors. Ingenious suggestions have been made as to how to extend Telephone Calls options to improve realism and discourage use of equivalent commands currently on the Train List. These are aimed at getting trains out of abnormal situations and resolve into two approaches: 1) Apply F2 Train List Signalling options; 2) Edit the train's timetable so that the abnormal becomes the normal, and proceed from there; 3) Add one or two extra commands to the Telephone Calls options menu that can be issued directly to the driver without resorting to the F2 menu or editing the timetable. IMO all approaches have their merits so there is no reason not to have all available, even if there is some duplication. E.g., for one or two manoeuvres, driver commands would be sufficient. Where more manoeuvering is involved, timetable editing would be preferable. Much has been made of how "realistic" F2 Signalling options and timetable editing are. Although I am not that keen on editing the TT and generally need to pause the sim to do it (which is unrealistic), I like Steamer's attitude that it represents giving the driver new verbal instructions. The same applies, though less realistically, to F2 Signalling options with the exception of Extreme measures. On the other hand, giving instructions over a series of phone calls and replies might take one or two extra calls, each taking at least two minutes sim time, but do not require use of the Train List. Others might consider this more realistic and it can be done "on the fly" without editing timetables. I guess "CSR" can be simulated either way. A number of people consider phone instructions such as Reverse and Shunt forward to be so uncommon and "abnormal" as not to merit inclusion, but on the other hand there seems ample evidence that signallers can and do issue them on the phone, so I see no reason not to make Telephone Call reply options more flexible, duplicating some of the F2 functions. My personal preference is for a single extra command "Ask driver to reverse direction and proceed" which at least introduces a reversing command into Telephone calls. "Ask driver to shunt forward" might also be useful for platform work. As far as F2 calls are concerned, I would prefer to see Reverse direction applied only after a train has stopped moving, thus we need a Stop command too (not a Pause!). Stop/Reverse direction/Shunt forward would do it, or a combination such as Reverse and proceed. But that's just my view. I also support the proposal to be able to contact a driver/platform in some way while a train is stationary at a signal and inform him that the signal will be replaced to a more restrictive aspect without incurring an ACOA. I can't think of anything further to add to this thread at this point so hope the developers will consider these options. Last edited: 02/05/2014 at 01:16 by maxand Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 24/05/2014 at 18:53 #60905 | |
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Slash
76 posts |
I'd like to add a 'vote' to informing driver of change of aspect. Say with a four track railway, you pull off for something to go up the fast, then the one in front calls up to say it's stopping with a problem. Now you are sending the second train into an unnecessary delay. Being able to reset the route without it being classed as Adverse Change Of Aspect would solve this. Cheers Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 24/05/2014 at 19:36 #60907 | |
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Finger
220 posts |
" said:I'd like to add a 'vote' to informing driver of change of aspect. Well, I'm not sure how it would work in reality. Imagine you're a train driver of the second train, running at 125mph. Every 20 seconds or so, you pass a signal. You are less than 4 sections (80 seconds) ahead of the critical signal that needs to be pulled - or else the signaller could pull the signal without any trouble. If you start braking less than 30 seconds (roughly) before passing the critical signal, you're gonna SPAD it. The signaller calls - what happens then? Last edited: 24/05/2014 at 19:37 by Finger Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 24/05/2014 at 20:20 #60909 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Oops, never mind - maths error on my part.
Last edited: 24/05/2014 at 20:29 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 24/05/2014 at 20:24 #60910 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
" said:The signaller calls - what happens then?You ignore it, it's not safe to answer, if he seriously needed you to stop then he'd press the "Seriously need you to stop" button. Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 24/05/2014 at 20:40 #60912 | |
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Steamer
3997 posts |
The way I've read it, the feature appears to be intended for trains stopped in stations. In which case, the signaller could contact the driver via the station staff and tell him what's going on.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 25/05/2014 at 11:32 #60931 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
To be honest I'm always hearing on this site that you can't contact moving trains because it's too dangerous, yet when I'm working in signalling centres I regularly see it happening. I'm therefore pretty certain that a lot of signallers would call up the train if they thought it stood a reasonable chance of stopping at the signal. They wouldn't return the signal to danger until the driver called back to confirm stopped at signal. Also if a driver can cope with vigilance and AWS whilst controlling a train I'm sure they can also cope with talking to a signaller. FF Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Hooverman |
| More realistic CSR 25/05/2014 at 13:07 #60933 | |
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postal
5269 posts |
" said:To be honest I'm always hearing on this site that you can't contact moving trains because it's too dangerous, yet when I'm working in signalling centres I regularly see it happening. I'm therefore pretty certain that a lot of signallers would call up the train if they thought it stood a reasonable chance of stopping at the signal. They wouldn't return the signal to danger until the driver called back to confirm stopped at signal. Also if a driver can cope with vigilance and AWS whilst controlling a train I'm sure they can also cope with talking to a signaller.It would be good if the Rule Book could be a bit more specific then. At the moment the instructions for drivers read as: 39.1 Using the train radio safely You must not use the radio when a train is moving if you might become distracted. If you receive a text message, you must only read that message when it is safe to do so. This does seem to leave a bit of a grey area where the signaller might lose some valuable time trying to contact a driver who does not which to become distracted. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 25/05/2014 at 13:15 #60934 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
The signaller could be expected to attempt contact with the driver, the driver could also be expected to ignore it. If it's a valuable message then there's other ways of getting it through. Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 25/05/2014 at 13:56 #60935 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
" said:To be honest I'm always hearing on this site that you can't contact moving trains because it's too dangerous, yet when I'm working in signalling centres I regularly see it happening. I'm therefore pretty certain that a lot of signallers would call up the train if they thought it stood a reasonable chance of stopping at the signal. They wouldn't return the signal to danger until the driver called back to confirm stopped at signal. Also if a driver can cope with vigilance and AWS whilst controlling a train I'm sure they can also cope with talking to a signaller.I know you've been up our ASC many times and you are right, we use the CSR/GSMR all the time to call train drivers that are on the move as in fact do they call the ASC while they are stil moving. The rule book leaves it to the driver to best decide when to answer the radio, either they can safely take the call on the move or they wil listen to our initial voice comms through the radio speaker and bring the train to a stand before lifting the handset, but the choice is theirs to make and the vast majority will use the radio on the move. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TimTamToe, Firefly |
| More realistic CSR 25/05/2014 at 18:01 #60940 | |
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crompton
4 posts |
DB Schenker policy is that we do not answer GSMR calls on the approach to red aspects. Any calls received must be reported to DB Duty Manager as soon as possible and it will be taken up with the relevant NR zone. Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 25/05/2014 at 19:57 #60944 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
" said:If it's a valuable message then there's other ways of getting it through. Not really. The CSR doesn't have any facility for urgent calls - just a text-based "STOP" message for an individual train, or "GENERAL STOP" for all trains. The GSM-R has an "Urgent Call" function, but this takes much longer to initiate than a normal call. When using the GSM-R 'Emergency' Call, EVERY train must stop upon receiving it. There is no text-based "STOP" message on GSM-R that can be sent to a train, without sending a customised text message that a driver has every right to ignore until it is safe to do so. There *is* a "Contact Signaller" message that we can send, but there is no urgency one can attach to the message. " said: DB Schenker policy is that we do not answer GSMR calls on the approach to red aspects. Any calls received must be reported to DB Duty Manager as soon as possible and it will be taken up with the relevant NR zone. Shame no-one has told us that! We commonly need to ask DBS drivers questions ("Have you got driver relief at Willesden Junction High Level?"  as they enter our panel, and that means they are approaching a red signal at Latchmere Junction.
Last edited: 25/05/2014 at 19:57 by mfcooper Log in to reply |
| More realistic CSR 25/05/2014 at 20:43 #60946 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
" said:DB Schenker policy is that we do not answer GSMR calls on the approach to redHmmm that's a bit awkward as the signaller has no way of knowing if the train is still approaching the signal or stopped at it, all we know is the approach track circuit/ axel counter section is occupied. I think it is for that reason that all cab radios have a speaker so the driver can listen to the initial message while if necessary bringing their train under safe control. Last edited: 25/05/2014 at 20:43 by Hooverman Log in to reply |