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| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 09:22 #60750 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
0T10 is ready at entry point Fairwater Yard, scheduled 15:35.On the Exeter signal map, Fairwater Yard has a Headshunt on its eastern side at signal 620, but nothing's marked on the panel as a "West Headshunt". Obviously I can't use Fairwater (east) Headshunt as a timing point as the crossover from Fairwater Yard faces Down, not Up. What's the answer? Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 09:23 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 09:33 #60751 | |
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smw
6 posts |
There's an little headshunt on the western side (see picture) at signal 623, it's just not named on the panel. I wonder what you did with trains 0T00 - 0T08. Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 09:51 #60752 | |
postal
5265 posts |
" said:What's the answer?Probably to use a little bit of trial and error rather than waiting to be spoon-fed. Trains entering at Fairwater Yard await a route to be set from S628. From that signal there are 2 choices of route: 1) turn right at the exit points and proceed onto the loop then main line. 2) go straight on into a short dead-end from which the only outlet is back into Fairwater Yard. As a start to the trial and error process, a short dead end at the West of the Yard might be analogous to head shunt at the East End and might even be known as the West Headshunt. Just for confirmation, I can confirm that a train with the TT as shown goes into that small dead end behind S623 where F2 shows it as at Fairwater West Headshunt and then returns to Fairwater Yard with no error messages or complaints. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 10:08 #60753 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
I guess it's the old argument, do you replicate exactly the panel (in which case the sim probably has more labels than it should), or do you label everything regardless, in which case, I accept, there are some deficiencies. Don't know the answer but I'd hope that where some are missing illumination can be gained by applying some logic and common sense. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 10:09 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Simdmuk |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 11:40 #60755 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
What is it about signal 623 that makes it a headshunt? All I can see is that Fairwater Yard has an East and a West entry/exit. You are referring to what I would have called Fairwater Yard West. On the other hand, Fairwater Headshunt (east) is a separate siding completely. Quote: I wonder what you did with trains 0T00 - 0T08I told them to abandon their stupid timetables and manually shunted them out and in again, using 681 or 480 as timing points, holding up everyone else in the process. Peter Bennet wrote (in the interim): Quote: I'd hope that where some are missing illumination can be gained by applying some logic and common sense.If I was the driver of 0Txx I would forget about logic and common sense and immediately yell for proper directions. That's exactly what causes accidents, when one acts on one's own initiative. Likewise signallers. At the subsequent inquiry, there are no prizes for displaying "logic" and "common sense", only for blindly following rules and regulations. There are several other places in this TT where logic and common sense just aren't sufficient. Peter Bennet also wrote: Quote: I guess it's the old argument, do you replicate exactly the panel (in which case the sim probably has more labels than it should), or do you label everything regardless, in which case, I accept, there are some deficiencies.Peter, I don't think either is the solution here. It's not your fault as a sim developer, it's the TT writer's fault for taking liberties with your labels. For example, if the intention was to reverse at signal 623, he should have written in the TT, "REVERSE AT 623", not invented an ambiguous new label such as "FAIRWATER WEST HDSHNT". Alternatively, if such an animal really exists and isn't labelled as such on the panel, the TT writer should make sure the link between 623 and FWH is declared in the notes specific to this TT. However, this also depends on the player reading all the notes, so it is clearer if just the signal number is used if the panel lacks a label for this timing point. Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 12:05 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 12:18 #60756 | |
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dwelham313
139 posts |
Max timetable writers don't invent loactions when writing a TT, all available options for timing points are already listed. 'Fairwater West Hdshnt' seems a reasonable name for the headshunt to the west of fairwater yard to me. 623 controls exit from Fairwater West Headshunt, it is shown on the panel as a single ended siding (known as a headshunt) denoted by the grey 'bufferstops' at the end of the siding. It differs from East Headshunt in that the East headshunt can be used for trains to exit the sim. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Simdmuk, TimTamToe |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 12:19 #60757 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
" said:What is it about signal 623 that makes it a headshunt? All I can see is that Fairwater Yard has an East and a West entry/exit. You are referring to what I would have called Fairwater Yard West. On the other hand, Fairwater Headshunt (east) is a separate siding completely.This is all desperately silly. If people who come to SimSig are so devoid of native wit and initiative that all they can do is complain that they haven't been spoon-fed with the instructions for every last click of the mouse, then I suggest that SimSig is too difficult for them. Perhaps they would be better finding something less intellectually challenging to fill in their time. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TimTamToe, lazzer, Simdmuk, y10g9, Meld, BarryM, GoochyB |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 12:28 #60759 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:If people who come to SimSig are so devoid of native wit and initiative that all they can do is complain that they haven't been spoon-fed with the instructions for every last click of the mouse, then I suggest that SimSig is too difficult for them. Perhaps they would be better finding something less intellectually challenging to fill in their time.Unhelpful comments like this do not make it any easier for other players encountering the same dilemma. The only member who has contributed anything helpful so far is smw. Maybe you could tell us what the obvious solution is for you. (added) dwelham313 posted while I was writing this. Thanks for your helpful explanation. Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 13:17 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 12:29 #60760 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
By this logic if a train reverses at Exeter St David's, should it say REVERSE Exeter St David's ? No I don't think so either so I don't see what the problem is! Just read the timetable and apply common sense. Dwelham has contributed by letting you know that blaming the TT developer is wrong. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 12:30 by headshot119 Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Simdmuk, GoochyB |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 12:44 #60761 | |
Steamer
3985 posts 
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" said:Quote:Like it or not, the fact is that learning to think your way around problems will serve you well when playing SimSig. Face your fears, experiment, get something wrong, try again. Not only will you learn faster, but you'll be able to apply your experiences next time you get stuck. If it all goes wrong, re-load from a save. You said yourself you like to think outside the box.If people who come to SimSig are so devoid of native wit and initiative that all they can do is complain that they haven't been spoon-fed with the instructions for every last click of the mouse, then I suggest that SimSig is too difficult for them. Perhaps they would be better finding something less intellectually challenging to fill in their time.Unhelpful comments like this do not make it any easier for other players encountering the same dilemma. The only member who has contributed anything helpful so far is smw. Maybe you could tell us what the obvious solution is for you. Speaking personally, the obvious solution is indeed the short siding. With more experience, it'll be the obvious solution for you too. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 12:45 by Steamer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Simdmuk |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 12:53 #60762 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
I think part of the problem is the need to timetable everything for the sim. In real life this wouldn't have a timetable at all (it's probably the yard pilot doing what yard pilots do the world over, in its own sweet time and a minimum of interaction with signalmen). From their point of view the ideal layout at Fairwater wouldn't have any signals at all around the headshunt. But it is so and therefore the signalman's cuppa (as if!) must be disturbed. I suspect the real-life phne call would be along the lines of: "Fairwood shunter, run-round at the West please" (or even, if there's a direct phone, just: "can we have a run-round officer"  without any reference at all to the headshunt let alone signal numbers. I'm sure the headshunt is unlabelled on the real panel, partly because everyone working it will know what a headshunt is and therefore how to identify it and partly because it doesn't really need a name anyway if it doesn't actually appear in a timetable.Although it works pretty well for the most part, the Simsig timetable function is probably the least realistic part of the sim in that every movement and shunt has to be timetabled and, as such, is permanently visible to the operator. I don't think there's any way round that, but it does mean you can never really be surprised by some daft move a shunter wants to make at the most inopportune moment. So far as this particular issue is concerned, it's (as so often) a matter of learning the area (and perhaps the terminology - Max, I'm not at all certain whether 'headshunt' is a term used in Oz?). Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Simdmuk, maxand, Stumpy21 |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 12:59 #60763 | |
jc92
3687 posts
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" said:I guess it's the old argument, do you replicate exactly the panel (in which case the sim probably has more labels than it should), or do you label everything regardless, in which case, I accept, there are some deficiencies.a fair compromise can be reached by replicating the panel correctly, but adding location labels with arrows on the relevant signal/sim map so unusual or unlabelled locations can be identified, without affecting the authenticity of the sim. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 13:00 by jc92 Reason: Grammatical change Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, Temple Meads |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 13:09 #60764 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:By this logic if a train reverses at Exeter St David's, should it say REVERSE Exeter St David's ? No I don't think so either so I don't see what the problem is! Just read the timetable and apply common sense.The problem is that I can't determine where the TT writer wanted me to route this train, and blame the TT writer for this, because from my point of view: 1) There is no headshunt entry in the glossary (thanks dwelham313 for explaining what a headshunt is), nor does the siding entry mention headshunts; 2) The Signalling Display Symbols makes no mention of a headshunt, only displaying the symbol for a siding; 3) The Exeter Operation page does not mention headshunts at Fairwater; 4) The TT writer seems to assume we already know it all. Is providing this basic information spoon-feeding? If I knew where the blasted train was supposed to go, it would simply be a matter of setting a route and waiting for the driver to do the rest. Quote: timetable writers don't invent locations when writing a TT, all available options for timing points are already listed. I'm aware of that, but am I supposed to stop everything to look up the TIPLOC codes when I should be "enjoying" the game? Applying the same logic and common sense, if a shunter tells me a train is ready at Fairwater East Headshunt, does he mean signal 620 or 628? Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 13:10 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 13:16 #60765 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
" said:Quote:The sim has been out in various formats since at least June 2006. In that time no-one else has ever encountered the same dilemma (or at least not to the extent that they needed their hand held while they made the necessary mouse clicks). Given the number of people who must have played the sim since that time, then I suggest that any test about what is reasonable and practicable in terms of operation and documentation of the operation has long been passed. That is why I made the comments I did and while not helpful in terms of pointing people to the right route to click, I hope they are helpful in pointing people who are clearly having trouble in handling SimSig towards another direction.If people who come to SimSig are so devoid of native wit and initiative that all they can do is complain that they haven't been spoon-fed with the instructions for every last click of the mouse, then I suggest that SimSig is too difficult for them. Perhaps they would be better finding something less intellectually challenging to fill in their time.Unhelpful comments like this do not make it any easier for other players encountering the same dilemma. The only member who has contributed anything helpful so far is smw. Maybe you could tell us what the obvious solution is for you. I did post my "obvious solutions" at the same time as smw this morning, but took my posting down as smw had made the explanation in a more concise manner than I managed. In my verbosity at that time, I pointed out that the obvious solution was a bit of native wit and perhaps some trial and error. If there is a siding at the East End of Fairwater marked as a headshunt, then it is just possible that a similar unlabelled siding at the West End may also be a headshunt. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, Simdmuk |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 13:20 #60766 | |
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Steamer
3985 posts
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" said:Why do you need to look up TIPLOC codes? The point being made was that the TT writer can only pick from locations programmed into the sim. The TT writer is not to blame. Since 'East Headshunt' is explicitly labelled, it's perfectly obvious where the train will appear from. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Simdmuk |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 13:41 #60767 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:Since 'East Headshunt' is explicitly labelled, it's perfectly obvious where the train will appear from.That's exactly my point. There is no "East Headshunt" on the panel, only "FAIRWATER YARD" and "HEADSHUNT". Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 13:42 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 13:46 #60768 | |
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Steamer
3985 posts
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" said:Quote:The shunter will state 'Fairwater Yard Headshunt', so logic would dictate that the train will appear at the location marked 'Headshunt', which is in the vicinity of Fairwater Yard.Since 'East Headshunt' is explicitly labelled, it's perfectly obvious where the train will appear from.That's exactly my point. There is no "East Headshunt" on the panel, only "FAIRWATER YARD" and "HEADSHUNT". "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 14:00 #60769 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
That's even worse. According to earlier posts, Fairwater Yard now has no fewer than three headshunts, two to the east and one to the west. Whoever writes a TT involving this area needs to specify which headshunt in terms that are abundantly clear to all. My suggestion here is to specify "FWTR YD EAST", "FWTR YD WEST" or "FWTR HDSHNT" in the train's TT. This does not involve re-labelling the existing panel. Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 14:37 #60771 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:That's even worse. According to earlier posts, Fairwater Yard now has no fewer than three headshunts, two to the east and one to the west. Whoever writes a TT involving this area needs to specify which headshunt in terms that are abundantly clear to all.But the timetable writer can't do that as they CANNOT invent locations in the sim, that is up to the developer. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Simdmuk, TimTamToe |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 14:51 #60772 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
" said:" said:That's even worse. According to earlier posts, Fairwater Yard now has no fewer than three headshunts, two to the east and one to the west. Whoever writes a TT involving this area needs to specify which headshunt in terms that are abundantly clear to all.But the timetable writer can't do that as they CANNOT invent locations in the sim, that is up to the developer. 
Post has attachments. Log in to view them. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 15:00 #60773 | |
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Steamer
3985 posts
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" said:That's even worse. According to earlier posts, Fairwater Yard now has no fewer than three headshunts, two to the east and one to the west. Whoever writes a TT involving this area needs to specify which headshunt in terms that are abundantly clear to all.Er, no. As you can see from the panel, there are three sidings at Fairwater. There's the East Headshunt, which is an entry point and is labelled Headshunt. There's the main Fairwater Yard, which is an entry point and is labelled as such. Finally, there is the West headshunt, which is not an entry point, and is unlabelled. Context should determine which Headshunt is being used- the one to the West can only be accessed by trains exiting Fairwater Yard. Any other trains will be destined for the east headshunt. And for the fourth time this thread, simulation TT locations are decided and named by the Developer, which are selected by the TT writer from a drop down list. The TT writer CANNOT invent their own locations to appear in the TT. Have a look in the timetable editor if you don't believe us. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 15:09 by Steamer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: dwelham313, Simdmuk, GoochyB, TimTamToe |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 15:44 #60774 | |
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peterb
452 posts |
Max, just to give you some insight: your lack of humility, positive rationale, logic, knowledge, common sense, adult maturity, or (still!) appreciation for something you appear to take for granted is really damning. I'm so glad I didn't write the timetable in question, and you should be too, because I would hunt you down. Have you given any thought to trying a sim other than Exeter? I recently released two new timetables which you should have fun with. Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 15:45 by peterb Log in to reply The following users said thank you: MikeW, BarryM |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 15:47 #60775 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
Post has attachments. Log in to view them. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 18:43 #60779 | |
Simdmuk
155 posts |
" said:I'm so glad I didn't write the timetable in question I'm beginning to wish I hadn't :S . Max , Its fairly obvious. 1)If the train is waiting to enter at Fairwater Yard it can only access the Down reception/relief line or a dead end siding. So the dead end must be the headshunt. 2)As the other headshunt (labeled) is at the east end of the yard, then the dead end must be the West headshunt. As most other posters have said,the TT writer is NOT responsible for the labeling of the sim or the timing points and their descriptions. I do wish that you stop blaming the TT writer for everything you don't understand. As Steamer said,there's nothing wrong with a bit of trial and error if you are unfamiliar with the area and/or ways to operate the specific sim. The developers and TT writers cannot write manuals/notes for every conceivable movement within these sims. You just need to use some thought sometimes. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: JamesN, TimTamToe |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 18:45 #60780 | |
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jc92
3687 posts
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is there any reason the east headshunt is so named if it is a headshunt? surely that would imply its a dead end siding like the west headshunt, rather than a yard warranting an entry exit point....unless it is?
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |