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| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 11:42 #67609 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
One of the rewards for getting to know a sim well must surely be an accurate awareness of how long one can leave the barriers on a manually operated LC (level crossing) down before incurring a penalty. Nevertheless, in the sims I play I cannot find any documentation as to the maximum permitted intervals for manual LCs, nor in the general documentation pertaining to manual LCs in general. So these intervals must vary from LC to LC. For most of us strugglers, at the very least it would be nice to see a flashing red light or other icon appear next to an LCs when the barriers are down to within 15 seconds of its maximum time. When the user clicks the RAIse button, or when Auto-Raise is enabled and turns on, naturally the flashing light (if present) would disappear. There are other solutions, such as a horizontal barometer as we see in other games, but a flashing red light would do the trick. OK, make it square and orange if you like so as not to confuse it with a signal. Okay, you say, why not find the duration of each interval in real time, document it, and set up an onscreen timer? Damn nuisance is the answer. If I'm playing, say, at 80% of 1:1 real time (or some other speed), I'd have to reset the timers. There would be no need to document (and thus continually update) the sim manual if each LC with a manual element could display such a meter. Also this would facilitate knowing when to lower the barriers on adjacent LCs. If the prototypers don't like this idea it could be made optional. Along with this request goes the previously asked for seconds display on the sim digital clock. I bet clocks in most signalboxes and control rooms have a second hand. Surely the overlong button "Reminder Override" could be shortened to "Rmdr Ovrd" to accomplish this. Last edited: 09/01/2015 at 11:43 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 11:48 #67611 | |
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BoxBoyKit
166 posts |
You are correct in assuming signal box clocks, on IECC workstations at least, have seconds. However common practise when recording the time is to round down up to 30 seconds and round up after 30 so it really makes the seconds irrelevant, in my opinion at least.
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| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 12:18 #67612 | |
pedroathome
916 posts |
" said:Please correct me if I am wrong, in in part this comes down to Simulation vs a game. Remember Simsig is a simulation and not a game. Secondly, again, someone correct me if I am wrong, but is it not normally 10 mins of a LC down without a train and something around 15 mins with a train? James Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 12:29 #67615 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2084 posts |
Set entirely by the developer based upon local conditions. The crossings at Coventry were often left down for a very long time, same with Tipton Owen Street, which was the main reason they were abolished. A blanket rule would probably cause a lot of penalties on them. Max, in reality there are no such "penalties" although if in a box right next to the crossing it has not been unknown to have people be abusive to the Signalmen for leaving the barriers down for what they consider to be an excessive time, and people have been known to pick up the phone on the crossing for the same purpose. Every situation is different though, I know of crossings fairly close together where leaving one down for the normal passage of a train can cause chaos at the wrong time of the day, but the other less than a mile away could easily be left down for half an hour without much adverse effect. Crossings on IECC or Panel will tend to have an auto-raise function in reality (although not always), and mechanical or gate boxes the Signalman will have plenty of time to concentrate on the movement that involves the crossing without being distracted elsewhere. I would guess that if you do not notice that a train has proceeded over a level crossing and its route cancelled off, then you are unlikely to observe any other warning either unless it is made disproportionately obvious. Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 12:38 #67616 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:It is simulating your performance review. Who says that life isn't a game? " said: Interesting what motorists will put up with in the UK. In North America if crossings are activated with no train for more than about 5 minutes motorists will revert back to "Stop, Look and Listen" rules....or take a chain saw to the gates. That's why there is on the order of one manually operated crossing on the continent and standards regarding how long crossings should activate before a train arrives since long wait times with no trains encourage drivers to ignore the warnings. Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 12:58 #67617 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:Crossings on IECC or Panel will tend to have an auto-raise function in reality (although not always)The more, the better! That would do away for my suggested need for timers. Perhaps the devs should equip all manual LCs on all sims with AUT buttons. Remember, I emphasized that this was to be an option (which could be turned off in F3) but useful when running a new sim at reduced speed, or maybe a familiar sim under adverse conditions at slow speed. This would return it to prototypicality. Quote: You are correct in assuming signal box clocks, on IECC workstations at least, have seconds. However common practise when recording the time is to round down up to 30 seconds and round up after 30 so it really makes the seconds irrelevant, in my opinion at least.BoxBoyKit, I don't understand what you mean here. Would you mind explaining a little more? 15 seconds seems about the minimum desirable for me. Last edited: 09/01/2015 at 12:59 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 13:40 #67620 | |
Steamer
3986 posts |
" said:Nevertheless, in the sims I play I cannot find any documentation as to the maximum permitted intervals for manual LCs, nor in the general documentation pertaining to manual LCs in general. So these intervals must vary from LC to LC.Could you list the simulations that are lacking documentation, and hopefully a developer will post the times, or someone can research them? Exeter gives a penalty for 12 minutes (without a train) and 15 minutes (regardless of number of trains passing), this excludes Silk Mill and is a fairly common set of values. Quote: There would be no need to document (and thus continually update) the sim manual if each LC with a manual element could display such a meter.I'd imagine that such things, once set, won't change. Quote: Also this would facilitate knowing when to lower the barriers on adjacent LCs. If the prototypers don't like this idea it could be made optional.Sounds like more trouble than it's worth- remember that different types of train will take a different amount of time. Having a simple rule of thumb (e.g. "Lower next one when this one down/lower when such a TC is occupied) sounds easier than waiting until a precise time before lowering barriers. " said: Interesting what motorists will put up with in the UK. In North America if crossings are activated with no train for more than about 5 minutes motorists will revert back to "Stop, Look and Listen" rules....or take a chain saw to the gates. That's why there is on the order of one manually operated crossing on the continent and standards regarding how long crossings should activate before a train arrives since long wait times with no trains encourage drivers to ignore the warnings.The 12 minutes without a train penalty has always struck me as excessive- you'd normally wait 5 minutes or less from barriers down to first train passing. " said: The more, the better! That would do away for my suggested need for timers. Perhaps the devs should equip all manual LCs on all sims with AUT buttons.You should be raising the barriers as soon as the train crosses though, not just in time to avoid a penalty! Quote: BoxBoyKit, I don't understand what you mean here. Would you mind explaining a little more? 15 seconds seems about the minimum desirable for me.I think he was referring to the fact that timetables only use half and full minutes. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 09/01/2015 at 13:41 by Steamer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 14:00 #67622 | |
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BoxBoyKit
166 posts |
" said:I'm simply referring to the fact that when recording the time in the TRB/OB/other documents, if the time was say 15.11.28 you would record that as 1511. If the time was 15.11.34 that would be 1512. Therefore the introduxtion if seconds on the SimSig clock, although more realistic for an IECC, would be a bit pointless as I personally believe they are in the real world, but there we go. Again, personally, I don't play SimSig to get a perfect score, and have worked level crossings and got some abuse for working them in what the publics eye is incorrectly, so I don't care if the road is closed for too long. The trains come first. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 14:05 #67623 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2084 posts |
Remember that ideal and excessive are two very different things. Just because it may be above the norm, that does not automatically mean it is excessive. Auto-raise functions are provided by SimSig wherever they are provided in reality, although there are a couple of places where there are errors in this. Example being that Pinhoe, Topsham and Paignton South all have Auto in reality but not in the Exeter sim, and Peter is aware of this for if he decides to update the sim again. Documentation as to how long each crossing can be down before you trigger each type of penalty is not really vital to the playing of the sim, because you should be raising the barriers in normal running long before it becomes an issue. If you get messages but raise them straight after a train has passed then you are lowering them too early. If a failure of a track circuit keeps the barriers down, then you will get messages anyway because the fault is unlikely to be fixed in less than the barrier penalty times. BoxBoyKit was referring to the practice in train register books where any time from 0 to 29 seconds is booked as the minute displayed on the clock, but anything from 30 to 59 seconds is booked as the next minute. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 14:29 #67625 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
" said:BoxBoyKit was referring to the practice in train register books where any time from 0 to 29 seconds is booked as the minute displayed on the clock, but anything from 30 to 59 seconds is booked as the next minute.That requirement was removed from the Rule Book in 2013 (when the relevant bits were transferred to the Network Rail National Operating Instructions) to bring recording of times in line with Trust reporting. Any time between 0 and 59 seconds is now required to be rounded down. NR/NOI-003 section 22 clause 1.4.5 refers. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Stephen Fulcher |
| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 16:18 #67632 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
" said:" said:I'm not sure the 10/15 minutes times are particularly realistic. We do have plenty of standards that are referred to about level crossing times, I believe, but these mostly apply to automatic level crossings where drivers are much more likely to abuse them (due to the lack of full gates). I think our cars are probably smaller than yours so less likely to be totally happy with simply ploughing through gatesIt is simulating your performance review. Who says that life isn't a game? 
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| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 16:31 #67634 | |
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JamesN
1608 posts |
The origianl values on Feltham were found, through real-life observation of Feltham, Datchet/Mays, Chertsey, Syon Lane and Barnes LCs to be far too restrictive - and were lengthened accordingly. It is something that we do look into when testing sims, are the penalties too severe for normal operation of the sim. As a general rule, barriers go down to give trains the opportunity to run on green signals if no intermediate station stops are present between the "lowering point" and the crossing, or having the signal clear as the train comes to a stand at the platform in the cases of crossing on the end of the platform. As per reality experience counts for a lot. Real-life signallers have their peers and training to fall back on, and that will cue them going forward. In SimSig we can experiment, but judgement plays a very large part. Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 16:58 #67638 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
We've had this sort of discussion before and if anyone can be bothered to dig back I'm sure you will find the stuff. From memory signallers on this site have said that there is no rule as to how long they keep the crossing down provided they have a reasonable reason for doing so. The SimSig penalty warning is simply there to mitigate against "cheating" by leaving the thing down all day and ignoring it. Quoted above is Exeter with 12 and 15 minutes which is the length of time the crossing is down with no trains having crossed and the second where a train has crossed. I believe I copied those parameters from another Sim and, without checking, they should probably the standard for all my Sims (CTRL+C is so handy). It seems to me if you are leaving the crossing down for 12 minutes without a train crossing you are not doing it right and I can't see why I should also then give you any sort of warning at 11 minutes 30 seconds: 11 mins 30 sec some might regard as somewhat generous of itself. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 17:49 #67645 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:I remember a story about some coastal town in a rural area of the UK there a stuck-down level crossing effectively cut off the only road out of town for something on the order of 12-36 hours. The local police showed up, but did nothing until NR could send someone out to rectify the problem. I do not even believe pedestrians were allowed to cross the tracks. The term Sheeple gets thrown around a lot, but that was seriously a case where people needed to deviate from the normal procedure.* I know some towns near me that were having problems with long freight trains blocking crossings for hours and hours. In protest the local mayor ordered the local police to park a police car on the tracks to see how the railroad liked being blocked in. Local police have also been known to issue citations to the railroad company, issue traffic tickets to the crew or even arrest the train crew for blocking crossings. All such actions are illegal since railroads are a Federal matter, but that doesn't stop the locals from taking action. *From a SimSig point of view would Network Rail only have gotten a single penalty deducted or a fresh penalty every time the timer rolled around? Last edited: 09/01/2015 at 17:50 by Jersey_Mike Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 09/01/2015 at 21:25 #67666 | |
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Steamer
3986 posts |
" said:I remember a story about some coastal town in a rural area of the UK there a stuck-down level crossing effectively cut off the only road out of town for something on the order of 12-36 hours. The local police showed up, but did nothing until NR could send someone out to rectify the problem. I do not even believe pedestrians were allowed to cross the tracks. The term Sheeple gets thrown around a lot, but that was seriously a case where people needed to deviate from the normal procedure.*Any pedestrians crossing the line would be guilty of trespass. In the UK, there is the requirement for railway lines to be fenced along their length (ancient Victorian rules over livestock ending up on the line I believe), and anyone on the wrong side of the fence can be arrested. I think it's unlikely that pedestrian access was cut off entirely- there was probably a bridge or (legal) foot crossing somewhere in the vicinity. Again, this is a culture thing- depending on which rural bit of the UK it was, the line speed could have been 100mph, the crossing on a curve and a frequent service- not a situation you'd want people unused to walking on ballast to be in! "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 09/01/2015 at 21:28 by Steamer Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 10/01/2015 at 00:39 #67671 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Peter Bennet wrote: Quote: From memory signallers on this site have said that there is no rule as to how long they keep the crossing down provided they have a reasonable reason for doing so. The SimSig penalty warning is simply there to mitigate against "cheating" by leaving the thing down all day and ignoring it. Quoted above is Exeter with 12 and 15 minutes which is the length of time the crossing is down with no trains having crossed and the second where a train has crossed. I believe I copied those parameters from another Sim and, without checking, they should probably the standard for all my SimsThanks to Steamer in Post #7 for posting these values and to Peter for confirming them. Those are generous values. If they are as widely used as you mention (and why not?) they should be included in core SimSig documentation on all manual LCs; in fact, I'm happy to add this to the Wiki so there will be no need to document each sim, unless the values are markedly different. Not knowing these values adds an extra, unnecessary element of uncertainty into playing SimSig. I hope my original post made it clear that wanting to know how long the barriers can be down is not to be able to cheat by leaving them down (anyway, as you say, there is no specific "penalty" in real life), but simply to be alerted if for some reason I forgot about a particular one being down (that's why I thought a 15-second warning light was a good idea, also created overlapping sticky notes, no more than a learner's crutch). In the Exeter sim, for example, in the case of a Class 1 passenger express travelling Up through Exeter St Davids (stopping at P5 for 2 minutes), I now know that if pressed for time I can lower both Red Cow and Stoke Canon as the train is approaching P5, set a continuous route through them and get on with other matters without waiting for a TRTS at P5 before lowering Red Cow, also not having to worry about seeing the "undue delay" message! Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 10/01/2015 at 05:34 #67676 | |
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Hawk777
386 posts |
If it’s stopping at P5, just hit the lower button on Red Cow when you get TRTS. Drivers or station staff ring TRTS a minute or two ahead of departure time, and the crossing takes well under a minute to close. As for Stoke Canon, I tend to lower it just as the train starts pulling out of Exeter.
Last edited: 10/01/2015 at 05:35 by Hawk777 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Timers for manual LCs 10/01/2015 at 07:02 #67677 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Hawk777 wrote: Quote: Drivers or station staff ring TRTS a minute or two ahead of departure timeUp till now I assumed TRTS signal was given when train was ready to depart at its scheduled time. Are you referring to SimSig or real life? Maybe I'd better start checking scheduled departure times against the TRTS time. What happens if TRTS is given two minutes ahead of scheduled departure time? Am I penalized if I keep the driver waiting until scheduled departure time? Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 10/01/2015 at 08:59 #67678 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
Can't speak for the Devs of SimSig but it was my understanding that TRTS was just a method of informing the signaller the train was ready to go. I imagine you could press the TRTS button as soon as the train was loading passengers. You probably wouldn't make many friends in the signal box mind! But I gather it's the signaller's job to know departure times etc. The point being, local conditions apply. You can even see this in SimSig. Some sims, the TRTS button is pressed at least a minute before booked departure to inform the signaller (think Euston is an example?) - in others its pressed if there's no proceed aspect set at the booked time. So it's a useful tool for the signaller, but like everything else, it's not infallible and certainly not to be relied upon. Edit: Surely not penalised for holding a train to right time! Seems to me it'd be the train crew getting penalised if they were leaving a couple of minutes early, not the signaller! Last edited: 10/01/2015 at 09:01 by RainbowNines Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 10/01/2015 at 09:59 #67679 | |
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pedroathome
916 posts |
I see it most times when at Exeter St Davids that as soon as a train is behind E360 signal (or whatever the Plat 5 down starting signal is) the TRTS is pressed, if not before. Remember though, daytime at least the crossing being down only means it's closed to road traffic, and because of the crossing keeper waving pedestrians across is not closed to pedestrians. James Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 10/01/2015 at 10:12 #67680 | |
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TimTamToe
664 posts |
" said:Hawk777 wrote:TRTS is just to notify that it is ready and that the signaller can start setting appropriate routes for the train. If it is a passenger train it still won't depart until its departure time. The TRTS is generally one to two minutes before departure time, - two minutes before would usually be if there if a crossing so there us time for the crossing process to occur and be cleared. So in some situations waiting for departure time before setting route could lead to a delayed departure but not a penalty as per se. TRTS can be displayed in the message box, if you don't already have it being displayed Max. The times I quoted are just observations and not necessarily what are set in stone in the sims or real situations Gareth Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Timers for manual LCs 10/01/2015 at 10:22 #67681 | |
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TimTamToe
664 posts |
" said:Peter Bennet wrote:Those figures are probably as Peter said used for his simulations but not necessarily the case for all other developer's sims so I don't think a general documentation to cover ALL sims quoting those times would be completely appropriate. Saying the following sims have times of x I think would be better but obviously would need confirmation from the relevant dev / tester Gareth Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Timers for manual LCs 10/01/2015 at 10:43 #67682 | |
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Steamer
3986 posts |
" said:but simply to be alerted if for some reason I forgot about a particular one being down (that's why I thought a 15-second warning light was a good idea, also created overlapping sticky notes, no more than a learner's crutch).But that's what the penalty is there for, to remind you that you've left the barriers down too long. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 10/01/2015 at 11:22 #67684 | |
belly buster
368 posts |
Having been stuck at Tile Hill, Canley and Bentley Heath many times over the years I can attest to the fact that on occasion the barriers can stay down for an incredibly long time. Tile Hill and Canley are gone now. That was a very busy and fast stretch of track so their removal was sensible. Bentley Heath is still there of course. It's annoying because there's an alternative route that only adds a minute or two's drive - but you can gamble and get stuck at the crossing for 15 minutes! Log in to reply |
| Timers for manual LCs 10/01/2015 at 11:26 #67685 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
Indeed, if a crossing is operated 'correctly' (that is, not lowered unreasonably early and raised as soon as possible), the penalty shouldn't normally be encountered - the only possible exceptions being when there's a few trains in quick succession or one's unexpectedly delayed in rear of the crossing. If you have to be reminded that you've left the barriers down, whether that's by a mysterious flashing light or a 'phone call from Control (yes, got the t-shirt!!), then you've already unnecessarily delayed road traffic and earned the penalty. To me, the job (in real life and in Simsig) is about minimising the inconvenience to road traffic whilst keeping trains running without delay, which certainly isn't consistent with lowering Stoke Canon barriers before an Up train has even arrived at Exeter - there's plenty of time to get them down after the train is observed to be leaving the station. TRTS needs to be given a couple of minutes before booked time (as long as the train's 'ready'), not only to give time to get the barriers down and route set, but also to ensure that the signalman can start thinking about conflicting moves if TRTS isn't received (the absence of TRTS being taken to indicate that the train's not ready to leave at booked time!). Log in to reply |