Page 1 of 2
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 00:43 #67952 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
When a shunter rings and tells me a train is ready to run early, I used to accept them if there was little other traffic, but now I'm inclined to ask all of them to hold back their trains until the appointed time. My reason is that if I allow them to run early, their TTs ("Show Timetable" do not seem to be updated to reflect this, so I'm forever recalculating when they should arrive at each timing point.I suppose the downside is that if the train suffers any delay as a result of entering on time, I get penalized a few points. How many SimSig users find allowing trains to enter early is a good thing, and how often does this happen in real life? Last edited: 17/01/2015 at 00:43 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 01:37 #67953 | |
postal
5265 posts 
|
" said:When a shunter rings and tells me a train is ready to run early, I used to accept them if there was little other traffic, but now I'm inclined to ask all of them to hold back their trains until the appointed time. My reason is that if I allow them to run early, their TTs ("Show Timetable"Without answering the question directly, it's an era thing in real life. In the earlier days it was accepted that you ran freights where you could fit them in between the higher priority services with the TT being something of a moveable feast. In current UK times with the contractual obligations which penalise you if you cause delay to another operator's train Network Rail are placing far greater emphasis in running trains of all classifications to scheduled time. In fairness, with the advent of just-in-time processes in manufacturing and supply, the modern logistics market is placing far more emphasis on freight arriving at scheduled time so there is much greater pressure to insist that freight trains run to due time rather than being fiddled in where there is a gap. If you want to run a modern TT you may well be acting true to life if you hold trains to scheduled time. However, in the heritage TTs you would normally expect to keep things moving as soon as time allowed. The penalties which would befall you if you moved something early without due consultation to places further down the line and ended up grid-locking next door's operation don't apply in SImSig! “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 01:44 #67954 | |
|
maxand
1637 posts |
Is it my imagination or is there no automatic amendment to "Show timetable" if I decide to allow a train to run early? I know it doesn't update if the train is running late - in fact, the only way I can see what SimSig expects and ETD to be is by checking the F2 Train List.
Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 04:25 #67959 | |
|
Late Turn
699 posts |
There's a definite advantage in running a train early if there's a suitable margin - by getting it out of the way, you then free up a path that might later prove useful if something else runs out of course, even only slightly. If you've got a freight booked to depart A towards B right behind an express passenger, for example, with the following express almost catching up with it by the time it's staggered to B, it's hopefully clear that a slight delay to the first express will delay the freight by a similar amount, squeezing its path such that the delay will then knock onto the following express. If, say, a track circuit failure occurs between A and B, you've got one less train to worry about if you managed to get rid of an early-runner some time earlier. It does still happen, fairly often, in the real world - but only if all concerned are absolutely certain that it can reach the next regulating point without delaying anything else, and crucially that there's somewhere that it can be regulated back to its booked path without getting in the way if, for whatever reason, it can't be accepted early at a subsequent location. Sometimes, if it's clear that it's going to exacerbate a delay (as above) by running as booked, it can even be acceptable to run it early in the knowledge that it will cause a (smaller) delay to something else in doing so. All part of the art of regulating! You are indeed correct that the schedule ("show timetable" isn't automatically amended. Although you've accepted the train early, it'll still keep its original schedule, simply running early against it. Yes, that does mean that you have to think carefully about when it'll get to subsequent locations, and whether it can be dealt with there - all part of the decision making process! Each schedule is carefully (?!) validated in advance by the train planners by checking for conflicts at junctions, provision of suitable margins, compliance with the planning rules and so on - something that a schedule revised 'on the fly' wouldn't have the benefit of. Effectively you're taking the place of the train planners, making sure that a suitable path can be found for the train.For me, juggling late running trains to minimise the overall delay, or managing to find a creative path for an early runner, is one of the most satisfying parts of the job! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 07:19 #67964 | |
|
kbarber
1743 posts
|
In the days of paper timetables when computers were room-sized beasts rumoured to exist in some of the newer powerboxes, the only information we had was the original timings in the WTT or traffic notice. They never did work out how to update those books on the fly as we regulated trains. We just learned to 'calculate' (pretty much a 'seat of the pants' experience thing) how much of a margin we had to get rid (or not) of something running early, with its timetable being used as a guide for sectional times. And of course little things like the driver on a finishing turn (or, conversely, the driver hanging about to lose his path, spend a couple of hours in various loops and make a bit of overtime) could completely throw any 'proper' calculation anyway. At least we don't have those in SimSig. Yet. (No Geoff, that ISN'T a feature request.  )
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 07:43 #67965 | |
|
clive
2789 posts |
" said:Is it my imagination or is there no automatic amendment to "Show timetable" if I decide to allow a train to run early?No, you are correct and that's the correct behaviour. It's showing you the *timetable*, not a prediction of where the train will be when. Signallers don't get such predictions provided to them. Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 09:03 #67974 | |
|
TimTamToe
664 posts |
" said:if I allow them to run early, their TTs ("Show Timetable"Hi Max, as Clive said it won't alter its TT in show TT (and nor should it) purely because its TT hasn't changed it is just you are deciding to run it ahead of schedule. As to what I do; it depends on what sim I am on to what decisions I make and also what else is occurring in the area at the time. If there are no places I can hold the freight later on and it is possible that it may end up delaying a passenger train before leaving the area then I usually hold to time. If however, I've had a few points failures / track circuits fail or other delays to passenger trains meaning they are late running, then I will sometimes run the freight early because it will cause less disruption by doing so than running it correct to time, where it may then delay the late running passenger trains further. It's all about adapting to the situations that arise in front of you at any given time Gareth Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, Aurora |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 09:15 #67975 | |
KymriskaDraken
963 posts |
" said:We just learned to 'calculate' (pretty much a 'seat of the pants' experience thing) how much of a margin we had to get rid (or not) of something running early, with its timetable being used as a guide for sectional times. And of course little things like the driver on a finishing turn (or, conversely, the driver hanging about to lose his path, spend a couple of hours in various loops and make a bit of overtime) could completely throw any 'proper' calculation anyway.I used to have a word with the Driver: "Hello Drive, if I let you go now we're on a bit of a dodgy margin. If I give you some greens you're not going to hang about are you?" Suffice to say that any Driver that did hang about after being let go would spend a lot of time in loops further along the line. Kev Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 09:17 #67976 | |
|
Aurora
183 posts |
" said:My reason is that if I allow them to run early, their TTs ("Show Timetable" Part of the fun (well, for me anyway). " said: How many SimSig users find allowing trains to enter early is a good thing, and how often does this happen in real life? As for the issue of allowing trains early as against making them wait till due time, generally depends on several things such as train type, where the train is going to, and whether the path is available without delays/avoidable congestion once it enters. One particular situation where I'd be more likely to delay till due time that comes to mind is one like Exeter St Davids and the Yard. Checking that no other trains are scheduled to use the platform before allowing an early train from the Yard to enter to that platform. Nil. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 09:33 #67978 | |
|
postal
5265 posts
|
There is another thing to bear in mind in both SimSig and real life. If the train is booked for a crew change you need to know that the relief crew are available before you put a train into a situation where it may stop the job. In real life the signaller will commonly get a phone call when the relief driver is available and then make the decision accordingly. This is not (yet) simulated in SimSig but there is the random element that freights are sometimes ready to depart after a nominal stopping time even though running early but they sometimes wait for due time before being ready to start. You can sometimes cause chaos when running Saltley by allowing a train to run early to Landor St where a lot of crew changes take place. It may down tools and stop the job until due time is reached. In real life you would hold the train at maybe Longbridge until you knew that the relief crew was available. You don't have that information when running a sim so the only safe thing to do is to hold the train until due time before allowing it to run to Landor St or anywhere else where it has a scheduled stop which may block other movements. Now if an evil TT writer had access to things like crew rosters, he could start writing rules that train B must not depart from X until Z minutes after train A arrives to simulate the fact that train B could not leave until the driver had arrived on his inward working of train A, taken whatever break is required then joined train B . . . . . “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 09:42 #67980 | |
|
Aurora
183 posts |
" said:There is another thing to bear in mind in both SimSig and real life. If the train is booked for a crew change you need to know that the relief crew are available before you put a train into a situation where it may stop the job. That's one thing differentiating SimSig from real life - crewing. Especially when things go wrong. Nil. Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 09:43 #67981 | |
|
uboat
219 posts |
Postal that sounds interesting might cause chaos. i can't wait for those timetables to come out. Saltley seems the most likely candidate. Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 10:17 #67987 | |
|
postal
5265 posts
|
" said:Postal that sounds interesting might cause chaos. i can't wait for those timetablesOr Brighton with the Haywards Heath splits/joins. You can't have the detached portion leaving Hayward's Heath until the incoming joining portion in the other direction has arrived and the driver has had time to get across to the other side. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 10:45 #67991 | |
|
TimTamToe
664 posts |
" said:" said:I had been toying with that ideaPostal that sounds interesting might cause chaos. i can't wait for those timetablesOr Brighton with the Haywards Heath splits/joins. You can't have the detached portion leaving Hayward's Heath until the incoming joining portion in the other direction has arrived and the driver has had time to get across to the other side.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 11:00 #67992 | |
|
John
884 posts |
" said:Or Brighton with the Haywards Heath splits/joins. You can't have the detached portion leaving Hayward's Heath until the incoming joining portion in the other direction has arrived and the driver has had time to get across to the other side.Or indeed a busy South London terminal. Over to you, Gareth..... :pinch: Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 11:09 #67993 | |
|
uboat
219 posts |
all interesting suggestions.
Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 11:34 #67995 | |
|
TimTamToe
664 posts |
" said:" said:Oh you know I love my rules and dwells John - although the dwells aren't working correctly at the mo since the last loader update which is a bit frustrating!Or Brighton with the Haywards Heath splits/joins. You can't have the detached portion leaving Hayward's Heath until the incoming joining portion in the other direction has arrived and the driver has had time to get across to the other side.Or indeed a busy South London terminal. Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 12:07 #67999 | |
|
maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks everyone - I learned a lot from your replies. In the absence of a specific Crew Change feature, I guess one way to pretend a train has stopped for one is to look for unusually long stops at platforms, particularly for freight trains, and not to shorten them by editing or other means. Thinking back, most requests I get for early departures apply to slow freight trains, so this fits in well. In the American signalling game Train Dispatcher, where long distances can be part of one's territory, Crew Expiry time is built into each service. Trains enter with varying amounts of crew expiry time left on the clock. If this time is likely to expire while the train is still in your territory, you must ensure it is safely out of the way somewhere, e.g., on a siding, goods loop, etc. The train will stop for the requisite number of hours until a replacement crew arrives, so the last place you want it to happen is on a main line! They take that very seriously over there. I'm not advocating that SimSig adopt this solution but I'd be in favour of any feature that models what happens in real life in the UK. PS It would seem relatively easy to add the abbreviation CC (Crew Change) at an appropriate timing point in the scheduled timetable. Last edited: 17/01/2015 at 12:09 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 12:07 #68000 | |
|
AndyG
1842 posts |
" said:There is another thing to bear in mind in both SimSig and real life. If the train is booked for a crew change you need to know that the relief crew are available before you put a train into a situation where it may stop the job. In real life the signaller will commonly get a phone call when the relief driver is available and then make the decision accordingly. This is not (yet) simulated in SimSig but there is the random element that freights are sometimes ready to depart after a nominal stopping time even though running early but they sometimes wait for due time before being ready to start.Maybe we need at DRTG (Driver ready to go) indicator? :whistle: I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 12:38 #68004 | |
|
slatteryc
254 posts |
Carlisle with that 80's timetable comes to mind as a sheer nightmare to regulate even if stuff enters on time as just when you've got everything nicely into loops and the pair of class 1's blast past and you pull the freights out.... another 3 class 1's enter and you know there's no hope of getting them to the next RP in time
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: guidomcc |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 13:37 #68007 | |
58050
2659 posts |
I would say that trains running early is an era thing. I've had real life experience on both sides of the job from being on the footplate & from being Train Crew Supervisor/Trainsmaster(again subject to era). For those of u who have experience in working on BR before privatisation traincrew led a completely different lifestyle on the railways to anything else. the job ran on alot of occasions on fiddles. When traincrew booked on duty & received their respected job cards or diagrams they themselves knew all too well what 'fiddles' were available n whichever diagrams. But the job ran OK without too much hassle unless there was an incident somewhere along the route which in effect stopped the fiddles from taking place. One example springs to mind when I was on the footplate at Bedford during the late 1980s there was a job where you relieved a St. Pancras driver at bedford(DF) on 6M74 Tonbridge - Cliffe Hill & worked it to Cliffe Hil, loaded the train & returned as 6O74 Cliffe Hill - Tonbridge & again relieved by another Bedford driver at d(UF). However the Bedford driver booked to relieve you on 6O74 was first booked to work 7O85 Toton - Northfleet MGR train from Finedon yard, wellingborough to Bedford as 6O74 was booked to arrive atBedford behind 7O85. However if 6O74 was running early & 7O85 hadn't departed Finedon yard at Wellingborough a footplate swap was carried out on the Goods line at Wellingborough, so the Bedford driver who was booked to work 6O74 from bedford to Cricklewood Recess was right away from Wellingborough & the Bedford crew off 6O74 would work 7O85 from Finedon yard to Bedford whereby they would book off duty earlier than having to wait at Bedford North Junction until the Bedford driver off 7O85 got there. That was a fiddle. these sorts of things existed all over the network. Now when I became Trainsmaster at bescot in 2001 we were responsible for the traincrew at Bescot, Saltley, Rugby, Toton, Leicester & Peterborough. One thing I learned very quickly was that job was like being headmaster at a school. As in most places you had 'the will do's','the won't do's' & 'the can't do's'. Despite the issue regarding traincrew relief being 2 minutes on paper, in reality it was a completely different state of affairs all down to who the driver was on the train being relieved or who the relief was? As mentioned before its era thing, in BR days freight trains usually ran early as that was another fiddle, if you got back early you finished work early even though you still got paid the time on the diagram, so by finishing early it was like getting money for nothing. however once privatisation came in & penalty payments were made between TOCs/FOCs & Railtrack/Network Rail things got a whole lot more complicated regarding early running. I used to have to attend meetings with Railtrack Great Western at swindon once a month as I was Duty Shift Manager in the Freight Operating Company's control & was accompanied by our Track Access manager & some of his staff, we would then meet with Railtrack Great Western's track Access Manager & they would go through each & every delay either company didn't agree with who got blamed for causing delays as big money changed hands. That is how the railway is run today whereby a TOC/FOC pays for a path & expects to run their train in that path. If a train is delayed & also subsequebtly delays other services then there is a stewards meeting to discuss & thrash out who is ultimately to blame for causing the said delay) & as a result pay compensation for it. now dealing with Saltley depot you ended up dealing with Landor Street junction which is the busiest freight relieving point on the UK network. Saltley PSB would only send trains to landor street once the signaller had received a phone call from the crew working the train forward. Train could run early & by running early I'm talking minutes here not 20 - 30 minutes plus & that was only if the forward driver was eager to get on & go. Trains would usually held on the Goods lines either at Longbridgef they were heading north or Washwood heath if they were heading South or West. That said it didn't necessarily mean that you would run early all the way to destination. During the night you stood more chance of early running as there were no passenger trains about except sleepers or mail trains. h EWS Royal Mail trains had top priority, as the penlaty payment was £1,000 per minute delay. One of the most important turns to cover at Bescot was Birmingham New Street Royal Main standby loco. The drivould take a Cl.47/4 to New Street, stable it on one of the centre roads, shut it down & waut there until about 0200am before returning LD to Bescot. If any North east/South West or Royal mail train travelling on the WCML failed in the West Midlands this loco would be dispatched torescue a potentailly failed train to minimise any delays as it could soon rake up to ten of thousands of paounds. Something thankfully we didn't need to worry about in good old BR days. God I miss BR come back all is forgiven. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, bossman |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 13:51 #68010 | |
|
Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:Carlisle with that 80's timetable comes to mind as a sheer nightmare to regulate even if stuff enters on time as just when you've got everything nicely into loops and the pair of class 1's blast past and you pull the freights out.... another 3 class 1's enter and you know there's no hope of getting them to the next RP in timeWell, presumably Carlisle is made much worse by the fact that trains can't keep up with their booked timings even when things are working! Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 13:56 #68011 | |
|
58050
2659 posts |
When Carlisle is re-released on loader format you will see that the 1979-1980 timetable has been vastly improved & as a result the freight train acceleration speeds have been amended so they do keep to time.
Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 22:43 #68028 | |
|
uboat
219 posts |
in some sims i get train waiting a replacement driver which can take quite some time and that delays following trains.
Log in to reply |
| Any real advantage in allowing trains to run early? 17/01/2015 at 23:51 #68031 | |
|
clive
2789 posts |
" said:and, according to one driver I talked to, a lot of time in loops for the next few months. Log in to reply |