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ARS colours totally confusing

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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 03:37 #68440
maxand
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This applies to Swindid A&B, summer TT 2014, but I guess could apply to any ARS-enabled sim.

It seems magenta is the colour used when trains are ARS. When ARS is enabled for the whole sim or just a particular class, the area labels (e.g., LUPOXFD) are naturally in magenta and the ARS messages are also in magenta, which makes sense. However, the headcode of an ARS-enabled train is cyan, whereas if I disable its ARS it changes to magenta. This is completely counterintuitive (read stupid) - it should be magenta if the train is ARS-enabled and possibly cyan if ARS is enabled for that class but not for that train.

I assume it's like this because it's the way it's done on an IECC screen, but why does it have to be this way? No wonder I'm finding it hard to learn ARS. Has this confused anyone else?

(Added) - I think I've found my answer here on the ARS Display Options page of the Wiki

Quote:
With ARS in “ARS State” mode the TDs will be shown as either cyan (blue) or magenta (pink). Cyan means the ARS (if on) will route the train but magenta means it will NOT. Note that this may seem opposite to what you might expect, but is nevertheless authentic. A berth with a magenta background means the train is being MANUALLY routed by YOU, NOT by ARS, even though the ARS line labels and buttons are also magenta!
Stuff authentic - long live common sense.

Last edited: 27/01/2015 at 04:23 by maxand
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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 04:14 #68441
GeoffM
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I would go back in time 25 years and tell the designers that.

Is it really that hard to learn two colours?

SimSig Boss
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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 04:26 #68442
maxand
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Is it really that hard to learn two colours?
I guess not. After all, Benjamin Franklin took a guess at the real direction of current (electron) flow and we've been saddled with that ever since. And before Galileo, most people believed the Earth is flat and the sun rotates around it. Come to think of it, our Prime Minister still does.

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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 04:36 #68444
ozrail
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There is science behind the use of these colours. The airline industry has the same colours on the Primary Flight Display and the Navigation Display in aircraft for a very good reason.
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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 04:41 #68445
ozrail
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Missed out in the Australian honours? And I'd wish you would change your picture. It's of the RMC in Sydney and they don't control any signalling or trains.
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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 04:42 #68446
maxand
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Quote:
There is science behind the use of these colours. The airline industry has the same colours on the Primary Flight Display and the Navigation Display in aircraft for a very good reason.
Could you tell us why please? As far as additive secondary RGB colours, magenta and cyan are not even complementary.

Quote:
Missed out in the Australian honours? And I'd wish you would change your picture. It's of the RMC in Sydney and they don't control any signalling or trains.
Well, now you mention it, I am a bit miffed. Though I don't live in a palace, I was expecting at least a knighthood for my long devotion to the British signalling simulation industry. As for my picture, the guy in this photo looks mighty like a type of signaller to me. Though with ARS up my sleeve now, I'm content to act as overseer.

Last edited: 27/01/2015 at 04:53 by maxand
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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 04:51 #68447
ozrail
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ARS 1983 Style. No worries about colour here and still in use today.
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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 05:08 #68448
maxand
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Quote:
ARS 1983 Style. No worries about colour here and still in use today.
The vital bit of info omitted here is that this photo is from a panel display, not an IECC screen display. Unfortunately, a yellow plastic knob can't change its colour readily.

Maybe the next generation of SimSig users will look back and ask "Why on earth didn't the developers include a user-friendly though un-prototypical option to display ARS colours intuitively?" After all, TORR is enabled by default in many locations where it is absent in real life - I fully agree with that.

As I said elsewhere, can't remember where, simply because those who have been in the real-life job have been trained to accept otherwise preposterous conventions, same conventions don't raise an eyebrow when they play SimSig. I have no idea whether ARS is portrayed in these colours on Australian screens, or whether we even have ARS.

After all, HRH Sir Phil the Greek once asked two indigenous Australians while on a tour "Do you still throw spears at each other?"

Last edited: 27/01/2015 at 05:11 by maxand
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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 07:42 #68452
clive
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" said:

And before Galileo, most people believed the Earth is flat and the sun rotates around it.
Cite?

The ancient Greeks knew the earth was round and had a pretty good idea of its size.

Columbus wasn't trying to prove the earth was round. He had got it stuck in his head that it was smaller than it actually is. His figure put the distance from Spain to Japan at about 2000 miles, which is why he tried his voyage.

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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 07:50 #68454
kaiwhara
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" said:
This applies to Swindid A&B, summer TT 2014, but I guess could apply to any ARS-enabled sim.

It seems magenta is the colour used when trains are ARS. When ARS is enabled for the whole sim or just a particular class, the area labels (e.g., LUPOXFD) are naturally in magenta and the ARS messages are also in magenta, which makes sense. However, the headcode of an ARS-enabled train is cyan, whereas if I disable its ARS it changes to magenta. This is completely counterintuitive (read stupid) - it should be magenta if the train is ARS-enabled and possibly cyan if ARS is enabled for that class but not for that train.

I assume it's like this because it's the way it's done on an IECC screen, but why does it have to be this way? No wonder I'm finding it hard to learn ARS. Has this confused anyone else?

(Added) - I think I've found my answer here on the ARS Display Options page of the Wiki

Quote:
With ARS in “ARS State” mode the TDs will be shown as either cyan (blue) or magenta (pink). Cyan means the ARS (if on) will route the train but magenta means it will NOT. Note that this may seem opposite to what you might expect, but is nevertheless authentic. A berth with a magenta background means the train is being MANUALLY routed by YOU, NOT by ARS, even though the ARS line labels and buttons are also magenta!
Stuff authentic - long live common sense.
Honestly, I think you really are clutching at straws here. There are far bigger issues than this. It would seem the problem is you actually learning them, rather than the simulation. I have no trouble interpreting ARS colours whatsoever.

Andrew

Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait!
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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 07:53 #68455
Danny252
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" said:
" said:

And before Galileo, most people believed the Earth is flat and the sun rotates around it.
Cite?

The ancient Greeks knew the earth was round and had a pretty good idea of its size.

Columbus wasn't trying to prove the earth was round. He had got it stuck in his head that it was smaller than it actually is. His figure put the distance from Spain to Japan at about 2000 miles, which is why he tried his voyage.
Yes, wasn't it that Galileo was an early proponent of the heliocentric model (Earth orbits Sun rather than Sun orbits Earth)?

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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 07:55 #68456
andyb0607
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Try changing the ARS state to show delays if the F3 menu.

Can't remember the exact place for this as I'm on my iPad at the moment. Think it's in a drop down menu on the ARS tab. This shows on time trains in green, moving through yellow and then red as delays get longer.

Also you can tell which trains aren't ARS enabled.

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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 10:13 #68458
Steamer
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" said:
It seems magenta is the colour used when trains are ARS. When ARS is enabled for the whole sim or just a particular class, the area labels (e.g., LUPOXFD) are naturally in magenta and the ARS messages are also in magenta, which makes sense. However, the headcode of an ARS-enabled train is cyan, whereas if I disable its ARS it changes to magenta. This is completely counterintuitive (read stupid) - it should be magenta if the train is ARS-enabled and possibly cyan if ARS is enabled for that class but not for that train.
If it's really bugging you that much, you can change the colour of the ARS messages.


Quote:
(Added) - I think I've found my answer here on the ARS Display Options page of the Wiki

Quote:
With ARS in “ARS State” mode the TDs will be shown as either cyan (blue) or magenta (pink). Cyan means the ARS (if on) will route the train but magenta means it will NOT. Note that this may seem opposite to what you might expect, but is nevertheless authentic. A berth with a magenta background means the train is being MANUALLY routed by YOU, NOT by ARS, even though the ARS line labels and buttons are also magenta!
You're quoting yourself there.

Once again, I think you're over analysing a trivial problem. Blue headcode=ARS, pink headcode=Non ARS, Pink (illuminated) subarea=enabled and grey subarea=disabled. Easy. No point tying yourself in knots.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 27/01/2015 at 10:13 by Steamer
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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 10:36 #68459
Danny252
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" said:
Try changing the ARS state to show delays if the F3 menu.

Can't remember the exact place for this as I'm on my iPad at the moment. Think it's in a drop down menu on the ARS tab. This shows on time trains in green, moving through yellow and then red as delays get longer.
Running off on a tangent - is this a real feature of ARS? Given that it appears only in ARS-enabled sims I'd guess so, rather than it being an optional Simsig extra; it just seems a bit colourful for normal signalling applications!

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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 10:38 #68460
Stephen Fulcher
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If anything, the sims with no ARS are less accurate with the TD because they should all be magenta rather than cyan. This is certainly the case in the Westcad systems I've seen.

In all seriousness though, it doesn't matter too much as cyan is slightly easier to see.

If you have a lot of magenta trains I'd guess you're doing something inefficiently as with SwinDid the ARS can be left to do more or less your entire job bar the manual routes into sidings.

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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 10:47 #68461
Noisynoel
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" said:
this photo[/url] looks mighty like a type of signaller to me.
Oh, so that's what a signaller looks like! I'll have to tell Becky at London Bridge ASC that she has to loose the leathers, piercings, tattoos etc and done a grey pullover so that she looks like the signaller she is qualified to be! Best do that from a distance! A long distance!

Noisynoel
Last edited: 27/01/2015 at 10:47 by Noisynoel
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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 10:52 #68462
Firefly
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Maxand

This is a VERY simple concept.

If the trains head code is Cyan ARS will automatically set routes for it IF the ARS sub area is enabled.
If the trains head code is Magenta ARS will never set routes for it.

If you struggle with them being Cyan and Magenta perhaps imagine they're Green and Red. Green means GO, and ARS will set routes. Red means Stop and ARS will not set routes.

You're trying to link the colour of the ARS sub area buttons to the colour of the head codes, DON'T. The colour of the ARS buttons could have been anything but they chose Magenta. It's not related to there colour of the head codes. If you look at any VDU based control centres that don't have ARS all of the head codes will be magenta simply because there's no ARS.

I really can't understand what is difficult about this and I certainly don't understand why you'd want to change the simulator to make it more complex than the very simple 2 colour system.

Ozrail is correct, the displays on an aircraft make use of Cyan, Magenta, Green and White. On Airbus the same word or symbol being blue or magenta will have 2 different meanings. (It's called blue by Airbus however it is actually Cyan). Red and Yellow is generally reserved for warnings and cautions.

FF

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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 11:03 #68463
Firefly
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Quote:
- is this a real feature of ARS?
The standard colour for train descriptions is Magenta. If the signal box has ARS then ARS enabled trains will be Cyan. Trains running to a special timetable or contingency plan will be Stone (Brownish colour)

There is no real world feature to enable you to see the delay minutes on the signallers display. There are however ancillary system that tap into the train describer to show the train delays by changing the head code colours but these are primarily to allow ops personnel to quickly determine how the trains are running and which ones are late. The signaller will have access to that display on a separate PC but it's not safety critical, it's just a bit of additional information.

FF

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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 12:36 #68468
maxand
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Quote:
You're quoting yourself there

I'm proud my sources are so reliable, except in the case of heliocentricity, which I admit I goofed up (couldn't think of the word). Thanks for pointing that out. You know what I meant.


Quote:
The standard colour for train descriptions is Magenta.

I can live with that, though magenta on black in the Messages box is getting to be a strain.

One thing I discovered which may help someone else is to go the the ARS tab in F3 Options (for those sims which are ARS-enabled) and change "Clicking on a train description shows:" from "ARS timetable summary" to "ARS popup information". Unless you do this, (1) the Messages box gets flooded with purple ARS messages of the next timing points of that particular train, and worse, (2) clicking the train's headcode does not Show (its) Timetable, something I value highly. Maybe not for everyone.

Noisynoel wrote (with spelling corrected):
Quote:
Oh, so that's what a signaller looks like! I'll have to tell Becky at London Bridge ASC that she has to lose the leathers, piercings, tattoos etc and don a grey pullover so that she looks like the signaller she is qualified to be! Best do that from a distance! A long distance!
Good on yer, Noisy! Nitpicking at its best. I rather like this photo because this clean-cut, untattooed kid reminds me a bit of myself. Of course, I was a bit younger then. Are you able to distinguish between qualifications and personal appearance?

Thanks to everyone else for your feedback. Other newbies learning ARS will have to bite the bullet and accept that black is sometimes white and vice versa.

Last edited: 27/01/2015 at 12:39 by maxand
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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 13:00 #68471
Peter Bennet
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I find all the wrong-line running on Chicago a nightmare - hopefully Geoff'll make a UK standard version as it'll make operating it a lot easier.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 13:29 #68473
ozrail
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This is ATRICS NSW Australia. Note the berth queues on the left. These are exit queues from the junction which is the next train expected by ARS from any line to that line. You can also click a drag that train number to the other line and the ARS will set the route to there. Also note the train number due on the bottom right. It's underlined with red showing how late the train is and in this case more then 10 minutes. When the approach berth is grey it means that ARS has set the route for that train. I always thought this type of display was a bit "Mickey Mouse", but it does convey a lot of information. All colours mentioned early apply to this system.
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ARS colours totally confusing 27/01/2015 at 22:33 #68492
uboat
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maybe we can add this to the simulation wish list.
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ARS colours totally confusing 28/01/2015 at 07:23 #68501
kbarber
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Going back to the original question, it occurs that the miniature CRT displays used in panels from the early 1960s until LEDs arrived in the mid-80s were a cyan-like colour; the LED replacements were whatever green happened to be available but clearly intended to be as close as could be managed to their predecessors.

So I would guess cyan was specified for descriptions when VDU interfaces were being developed, mainly for that historical reason. Then they needed a different colour to indicate non-ARS trains where ARS was provided. Then that different colour (magenta) ended up as the default where ARS wasn't provided.

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ARS colours totally confusing 28/01/2015 at 16:59 #68518
Forest Pines
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" said:

There is no real world feature to enable you to see the delay minutes on the signallers display. There are however ancillary system that tap into the train describer to show the train delays by changing the head code colours but these are primarily to allow ops personnel to quickly determine how the trains are running and which ones are late. The signaller will have access to that display on a separate PC but it's not safety critical, it's just a bit of additional information.
Side note: if you're passing through Bristol Temple Meads one of these displays is mounted in the wall of the subway, with a sign that it is strictly for Staff Only to look at and passengers should avert their eyes. Quite handy though.

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ARS colours totally confusing 28/01/2015 at 17:04 #68519
Forest Pines
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" said:
I'll have to tell Becky at London Bridge ASC that she has to loose the leathers, piercings, tattoos etc and done a grey pullover so that she looks like the signaller she is qualified to be!
There isn't a Most Attractive Signaller award, is there?

Quote:
Best do that from a distance! A long distance!
Maybe I should forget that line of thought!

Last edited: 28/01/2015 at 17:05 by Forest Pines
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