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Sims good for learning ARS?

You are here: Home > Forum > General > General questions, comments, and issues > Sims good for learning ARS?

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Sims good for learning ARS? 27/01/2015 at 13:24 #68472
maxand
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In most cases, as has been said, it's probably common sense, if it's something like MWELUF (made up name) on Motherwell and placed in the location of Motherwell station then it's a pretty good guess that it's the routes on the Up fast in that area.
That makes sense. Can you shed further light on what the L prefix stands for in the Swindon/Didcot sim?

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Sims good for learning ARS? 27/01/2015 at 13:31 #68474
Steamer
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" said:
Quote:
In most cases, as has been said, it's probably common sense, if it's something like MWELUF (made up name) on Motherwell and placed in the location of Motherwell station then it's a pretty good guess that it's the routes on the Up fast in that area.
That makes sense. Can you shed further light on what the L prefix stands for in the Swindon/Didcot sim?
There's a guess in the second post on this thread, in addition to further reasoning on the colour schemes.

It also matches the convention used on the real Swindon B IECC, see photo. Swindon A is a 1960s panel which doesn't have ARS in real life, however when the A and B simulations were combined ARS was provided throughout, I assume the developer simply continued the standard set by B when creating areas for A. I don't know what the origin of the standard is, however.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 27/01/2015 at 15:00 by Steamer
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Sims good for learning ARS? 27/01/2015 at 14:10 #68475
Firefly
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Why are all the ARS area labels in Swindon A&B prefaced by "L",
I'll have a look into it, but I believe it's because it's a latch and all latches are prefixed L in an SSI interlocking.

FF

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Sims good for learning ARS? 27/01/2015 at 16:51 #68478
clive
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" said:
Quote:
Why are all the ARS area labels in Swindon A&B prefaced by "L",
I'll have a look into it, but I believe it's because it's a latch and all latches are prefixed L in an SSI interlocking.
No, in SimSig ARS isn't a latch. Latches begin L, but ARS areas begin A. The displayed label has the removed (i.e. a label of LXYZ will be ALXYZ internally).

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Sims good for learning ARS? 27/01/2015 at 18:11 #68479
headshot119
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" said:
" said:
Quote:
Why are all the ARS area labels in Swindon A&B prefaced by "L",
I'll have a look into it, but I believe it's because it's a latch and all latches are prefixed L in an SSI interlocking.
No, in SimSig ARS isn't a latch. Latches begin L, but ARS areas begin A. The displayed label has the removed (i.e. a label of LXYZ will be ALXYZ internally).
That doesn't really answer the question though, Firefly is saying that in Swindid the labels have been kept with the "L" because that is what SSI interlocking has.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Sims good for learning ARS? 27/01/2015 at 18:40 #68480
Firefly
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I'm struggling to find a reason why, however it is an absolute requirement that they should be prefixed with L. The best I have found is a document that States the subarea identity must be prefixed with L for "technical reasons."

Looking at the ARS latches they are called LARS...... yet ARS SBA's only have an L so it probably has nothing to do with latches.

FF

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Sims good for learning ARS? 27/01/2015 at 19:06 #68482
KymriskaDraken
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" said:
I'm struggling to find a reason why, however it is an absolute requirement that they should be prefixed with L. The best I have found is a document that States the subarea identity must be prefixed with L for "technical reasons."

Looking at the ARS latches they are called LARS...... yet ARS SBA's only have an L so it probably has nothing to do with latches.

FF
So it's the standard railway reason of "It just is."


Kev

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Sims good for learning ARS? 27/01/2015 at 20:48 #68487
arabianights
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Doesn't ARS (the original, not Geoff's ) date back to the 60s? It would not at all surprise me if code written then when every bit counted uses the first letter as an identifier for what the entity is.

See also: TOPS.

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Sims good for learning ARS? 27/01/2015 at 22:58 #68493
Danny252
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1960s? Surely ARS (taking the specific product) is part of the IECC package, which runs on solid state hardware - and there wasn't much of that around in the 60s!
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Sims good for learning ARS? 27/01/2015 at 23:05 #68495
Steamer
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" said:
Doesn't ARS (the original, not Geoff's ) date back to the 60s? It would not at all surprise me if code written then when every bit counted uses the first letter as an identifier for what the entity is.

See also: TOPS.
I thought the first trial installation of ARS was on Three Bridges panel, which opened in 1983? First full installation on Liverpool Street in 1985.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Sims good for learning ARS? 27/01/2015 at 23:10 #68496
clive
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" said:
Doesn't ARS (the original, not Geoff's ) date back to the 60s? It would not at all surprise me if code written then when every bit counted uses the first letter as an identifier for what the entity is.
The SimSig simulation data files still do (except for timetable locations, which can begin with any letter), though it can be explicitly overridden.

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Sims good for learning ARS? 28/01/2015 at 00:35 #68498
GeoffM
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IIRC the original ARS was being written/designed in the late 1970s / early 1980s. The first installation on a part of Three Bridges panel was written in Corel. That was then ported to a form of Pascal for the IECC platform. Then, in 1998/9 I was part of the team that ported the IECC version to Delphi for the North Kent MCS scheme, which is still running today. (Side note: though Westinghouse led at least the signalling/control side of the job, I think Westcad wasn't approved at the time, hence MCS which was)

The TRE Signaller's Assistant was written from the ground up but also using Delphi. It's considered "safe" for SIL2 applications whereas C++ requires some heavy restrictions to be approved.

As for why the L prefix, yes it relates to SSI latches being L<whatever> but I'm less clear on why it would be on the signaller's display with that prefix. IIRC the keyboard commands are "[SBA] area [SET]" so the [SBA] key already indicates that a subarea is coming up.

SimSig Boss
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Sims good for learning ARS? 28/01/2015 at 06:00 #68500
maxand
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And I expected a simple explanation! Thanks for all your research. The actual reasons seem to be lost in the mists of time, but - what the heck! - the sim works and that's the main thing. My understanding of a latch is that it's a digital electronics device which, once triggered, stays on (latched) until it is released. Fair enough.

Another question on ARS: someone in this thread suggested making some train classes ARS and others non-ARS, to make the sim more enjoyable. May I ask which classes do ARS users here (or in real life, for that matter) prefer to enable and which disable? My own inclination would be to enable the faster classes (1-5) and leave remaining freight for manual routing to get them out of the way when necessary. What do others do?

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Sims good for learning ARS? 28/01/2015 at 10:12 #68503
TimTamToe
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" said:

Another question on ARS: someone in this thread suggested making some train classes ARS and others non-ARS, to make the sim more enjoyable. May I ask which classes do ARS users here (or in real life, for that matter) prefer to enable and which disable? My own inclination would be to enable the faster classes (1-5) and leave remaining freight for manual routing to get them out of the way when necessary. What do others do?
Personally (not from real life experience) I will run all freights and ECS movements non-ARS and to some extent some of the RHTT trains (rail head treatment). The reasons for this are that they quite often have slack time built into their timetables and ARS will not always take this into account and can lead to the situation where an early ECS movement could block up a route / station by being early with no platform free for it to go to, and also it is then easier to loop them to let late running passenger trains through. For the Victoria TTs I've written I advise running ECS (class 5) non-ARS otherwise they will come out of the depots early and give you a nice big headache as my testers will vouch for!

Class 1-2 ARS
Class 3 Depending on train
Class 4-7 non ARS
Class 8 Depending on train
class 9 Depends on TT - ARS for London TTs with London Overground services

It does also depend on how much disruption you have whether it being late running trains or track failures etc - as good as ARS is in these situations it is the signaller's brain that is key

HTH

Gareth

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Sims good for learning ARS? 28/01/2015 at 11:11 #68504
maxand
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Makes good sense. While SimSig sims such as Swindon permit Class 0 (unattached locos, often for run-around purposes) to go ARS, like the freight trains and others you mentioned, I think I would also disable them for the same reasons.

Which leads me to another question I should have included in my previous post. In real life, although ARS may be enabled in a particular area, is this applicable to all train classes (as in SimSig), or do the implementers of r/l ARS restrict it to certain classes only? It would not surprise me if implementing ARS has a high cost overhead, therefore, unlike SimSig, it would make sense to restrict it to trains where this will pay off the most.

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Sims good for learning ARS? 28/01/2015 at 12:51 #68505
maxand
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Two more questions about SimSig's ARS (using Swindon sim):

1) Sometimes the magenta area labels flash. In most cases this seems to be linked to an ARS-enabled train passing through the area described by the label, but in some cases they flash for no obvious reason, even after the train has passed, and in others, the train seems to be ARS-routed, yet the nearest label to it doesn't flash. What is the reason for flashing? The Wiki ARS page does not mention this feature.

2) To override ARS control (i.e., when it should be kicking in but doesn't), when for example an ARS-enabled train stops at a signal marking entry to an ARS label area and refuses to budge further (e.g., S901 at Moreton Cutting in Swindon sim), the solution seems to be to set the route ahead of it into the next ARS label area and hope ARS will pick it up. The route is set exactly as scheduled, no deviations. Is this the proper way to "help ARS along"? The alternative would be to make the train non-ARS, then route it manually, then make it ARS again, but this seems unnecessary at present. Am I doing it correctly? This is all rather wordy, but all I'm asking is to know that it's OK to set routes on top of ARS without having to make the train non-ARS first.

Thanks.

Last edited: 28/01/2015 at 13:08 by maxand
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Sims good for learning ARS? 28/01/2015 at 13:00 #68506
maxand
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As this is becoming an "ARS hints" thread, I'd like to repost this hint earlier posted here:

Quote:
One thing I discovered which may help someone else is to go the the ARS tab in F3 Options (for those sims which are ARS-enabled) and change "Clicking on a train description shows:" from "ARS timetable summary" to "ARS popup information". Unless you do this, (1) the Messages box gets flooded with purple ARS messages of the next timing points of that particular train, and worse, (2) clicking the train's headcode does not Show (its) Timetable, something I value highly. Maybe not for everyone.
Some may say that by doing that, I also deprive myself of seeing ARS routesetting status which now no longer appears in Messages (in magenta, of course!). However, this information is summarized in one useful line at the top RH corner of the Show Timetable (popup) window. The Wiki calls this line "extra" ARS routesetting status information, but it is all I need and handy to know about.

Last edited: 28/01/2015 at 13:01 by maxand
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Sims good for learning ARS? 28/01/2015 at 13:05 #68507
GeoffM
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" said:
My understanding of a latch is that it's a digital electronics device which, once triggered, stays on (latched) until it is released. Fair enough.
Yes - SSI encapsulates points, signals, track circuits, routes, and timers into objects such that basic dirty work is done in the SSI core code rather than data driven. Flags are also objects but they are simply bi-state values with no additional logic - they're either off or they're on. Booleans.


" said:
Which leads me to another question I should have included in my previous post. In real life, although ARS may be enabled in a particular area, is this applicable to all train classes (as in SimSig), or do the implementers of r/l ARS restrict it to certain classes only? It would not surprise me if implementing ARS has a high cost overhead, therefore, unlike SimSig, it would make sense to restrict it to trains where this will pay off the most.
Swindon B is the only area I know (in real life) that only has ARS for classes 1, 2, and 5. In all other areas these classes usually have higher priorities; classes 7 and 8 usually the lowest priority. The priorities only kick in once one or both trains reaches a threshold lateness (~5 minutes but varies); timetable order applies otherwise.


" said:
1) Sometimes the magenta area labels flash. In most cases this seems to be linked to an ARS-enabled train passing through the area described by the label, but in some cases they flash for no obvious reason, even after the train has passed, and in others, the train seems to be ARS-routed, yet the nearest label to it doesn't flash. What is the reason for flashing? The Wiki ARS page does not mention this feature.
It means that a route was cancelled manually (ie: you did it). The flashing is an alert to show you need to do something as routes using those subareas won't be set unless you enable the subarea(s) again.


" said:
2) To override ARS control, when for example an ARS-enabled train stops at a signal marking entry to an ARS label area and refuses to budge further (e.g., S901 Swindon), the solution seems to be to set the route ahead of it into the next ARS label area and hope ARS will pick it up. The route is set exactly as scheduled, no deviations. Is this the proper way to "help ARS along"? The alternative would be to make the train non-ARS, then route it manually, then make it ARS again, but this seems unnecessary at present. Am I doing it correctly?
Just leave it in ARS and set the first route. If the next route has no other restrictions (waiting for booked time, TRTS, or some other event) then it'll carry on setting route for you. Making the train non-ARS for this purpose doesn't achieve anything useful.

SimSig Boss
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Sims good for learning ARS? 28/01/2015 at 13:10 #68508
Peter Bennet
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I think I'm correct in saying that the only time the ARS sub area will flash is if you manually pull a route (can't think of any other reason). The flashing tells you that's happened and all the sub-areas linked to the pulled route will flash (see my comment on Motherwell DM to UM route). Pulling a route disables the ARS sub-areas and is a safety device -where it thinks (in effect) - signaller has pulled a route - why? what's wrong? I'll disable myself while he sorts out what he's doing. And it prevents the ARS resetting the same route you've just pulled: flashing is an indicator of the fact.

Some signal routes are not ARS set-able, particularly those entering/leaving sidings. If they were set-able then you could have the situation of a train entering unexpectedly and ARS setting a route (in safety) in front of an express where you'd have otherwise regulated the service. There should be a message to tell you when a manual route needs set.

You can manually route any trains along whatever route you want provided you do so before the ARS sets the allocated route (or you pull the route with the consequences above). You do not need to unallocate ARS though it will (in a lot of cases) seek to put the train bakc on the planned path at the earliest opportunity if it's still on ARS.

Peter

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Last edited: 28/01/2015 at 13:17 by Peter Bennet
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Sims good for learning ARS? 28/01/2015 at 13:21 #68509
maxand
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GeoffM wrote:
Quote:
It means that a route was cancelled manually (ie: you did it). The flashing is an alert to show you need to do something as routes using those subareas won't be set unless you enable the subarea(s) again.


Peter Bennet
also wrote:
Quote:
I think I'm correct in saying that the only time the ARS sub area will flash is if you manually pull a route (can't think of any other reason).
That's what happened. So what I did was:
1) R-click the (solid magenta) roundel button on the ARS area label to disable the label, which turned off the flashing - label became grey;
2) L-click the same roundel to re-enable ARS for that label - label turned magenta again and did not flash.

After experimenting, it's insufficient to simply reset the same route - ARS label will continue to blink. The label must be disabled then re-enabled

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Sims good for learning ARS? 28/01/2015 at 14:32 #68512
GeoffM
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" said:
I think I'm correct in saying that the only time the ARS sub area will flash is if you manually pull a route (can't think of any other reason).
In SimSig, yes. In real life this will also happen if a route fails to set - usually a cross boundary route. ARS will try three times at intervals of 10s +/- a few seconds (to reduce the risk of colliding with another request again and again) and if that fails to set then it outputs an error and drops the subareas. This is not the same as a route being unavailable generally: it should already know that, albeit up to a second behind the times. Another message is output and the subareas dropped if the route sets but fails to prove within 10 seconds - ie failed point usually.

SimSig Boss
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Sims good for learning ARS? 28/01/2015 at 16:35 #68517
Ron_J
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" said:
Which leads me to another question I should have included in my previous post. In real life, although ARS may be enabled in a particular area, is this applicable to all train classes (as in SimSig), or do the implementers of r/l ARS restrict it to certain classes only? It would not surprise me if implementing ARS has a high cost overhead, therefore, unlike SimSig, it would make sense to restrict it to trains where this will pay off the most.
Not quite the answer to the question you asked but a bit more real life information taken from the signalbox special instructions for a random workstation at a large IECC in Scotland....

Quote:
Automatic route setting

You must switch off ARS operation for the relevant sub-area(s) under the following conditions:

· When the emergency alarm / bell signal is received from a fringe centre / box
· When there is an intermittent track circuit failure
· When the instructions in Module S5 have to be carried out
· When it is necessary for a movement to be made for which a fixed signal is not provided or available
· During an engineer's possession
· When Module TS2 / 3.5, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, Module TS1 / 19, 20, 21, Module T1B / 2, 6 and 13 are in operation
· When the conditions detailed in Module TS9 / 13.1, 13.2 and 13.3 apply
· During the passage of a Royal Train
· On the line adjoining that on which an out-of-gauge load is proceeding
· When any vehicle which is not guaranteed to operate track circuits requires to run
The above instruction is common to all IECC workstations I've been involved with.

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Sims good for learning ARS? 28/01/2015 at 18:43 #68520
Muzer
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" said:
GeoffM wrote:
Quote:
It means that a route was cancelled manually (ie: you did it). The flashing is an alert to show you need to do something as routes using those subareas won't be set unless you enable the subarea(s) again.


Peter Bennet
also wrote:
Quote:
I think I'm correct in saying that the only time the ARS sub area will flash is if you manually pull a route (can't think of any other reason).
That's what happened. So what I did was:
1) R-click the (solid magenta) roundel button on the ARS area label to disable the label, which turned off the flashing - label became grey;
2) L-click the same roundel to re-enable ARS for that label - label turned magenta again and did not flash.

After experimenting, it's insufficient to simply reset the same route - ARS label will continue to blink. The label must be disabled then re-enabled
You CAN just left-click the roundel once, ie you don't need to disable it first.

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Sims good for learning ARS? 28/01/2015 at 20:06 #68521
Steamer
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" said:

1) Sometimes the magenta area labels flash. In most cases this seems to be linked to an ARS-enabled train passing through the area described by the label, but in some cases they flash for no obvious reason, even after the train has passed, and in others, the train seems to be ARS-routed, yet the nearest label to it doesn't flash. What is the reason for flashing? The Wiki ARS page does not mention this feature.
I've added a note in the section linked to, and added another line to "What ARS Can't Do".

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Sims good for learning ARS? 28/01/2015 at 21:31 #68524
Peter Bennet
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" said:
" said:
GeoffM wrote:
Quote:
It means that a route was cancelled manually (ie: you did it). The flashing is an alert to show you need to do something as routes using those subareas won't be set unless you enable the subarea(s) again.


Peter Bennet
also wrote:
Quote:
I think I'm correct in saying that the only time the ARS sub area will flash is if you manually pull a route (can't think of any other reason).
That's what happened. So what I did was:
1) R-click the (solid magenta) roundel button on the ARS area label to disable the label, which turned off the flashing - label became grey;
2) L-click the same roundel to re-enable ARS for that label - label turned magenta again and did not flash.

After experimenting, it's insufficient to simply reset the same route - ARS label will continue to blink. The label must be disabled then re-enabled
You CAN just left-click the roundel once, ie you don't need to disable it first.
Yes I as just thinking Max was making an unnecessary click, which I know he abhors.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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