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TORR should be on by default 17/05/2015 at 07:04 #72322 | |
delticfan
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" said:Honestly, of all the things affecting difficulty, I find TORR to be a pretty minor one. It only takes a moment to cancel routes (particularly if you have right-click configured to cancel routes by default, as I do, using shift to access the menu). If you forget to cancel routes, well, nothing happens. It’s not like a second train will accidentally follow a route it shouldn’t; stick locking prevents this. It’s probably not ideal procedure, but one could probably just leave all the routes set and then cancel them as needed immediately before setting a route, rather than cancelling them behind a passing train, which means you don’t add any cognitive load—you’re already in the area, looking at exactly the same signals, you basically just have to right-click before left-clicking (slightly harder for layouts that simulate mechanical lever frames where you can’t set a route up to a prior set route, but you get the idea).I think I'm with you on the crossings, especially on a sim with loads of them. I must admit if it's an option I always select TORR enabled. Log in to reply |
TORR should be on by default 17/05/2015 at 16:05 #72358 | |
Muzer
![]() 718 posts |
Yeah, I just find TORR more of an annoyance than anything else. You're right, it doesn't really add to the difficulty*, but it adds to the workload a little bit in a way that doesn't really positively impact the experience in any way. Obviously it's realistic, and for this reason I'm not saying TORR being off shouldn't be an option. But I will always play with TORR on myself. * Except with level crossings, of course Re your suggestion on AHBs, I would probably nitpick and say something like MCB-OD would be more suitable, since it more closely matches the crossing type in question but still doesn't require any intervention when it's working. But yeah, just removing LCs completely like Feltham, Wimbledon and (IIRC) Shrewsbury have the option to do works as well. Log in to reply |
TORR should be on by default 17/05/2015 at 18:06 #72369 | |
Hawk777
![]() 386 posts |
Yes, you’re right. Lack of TORR does make auto-raise kind of useless.
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TORR should be on by default 17/05/2015 at 18:32 #72372 | |
JamesN
![]() 1591 posts ![]() |
" said:Yes, you’re right. Lack of TORR does make auto-raise kind of useless.On the real panel (Derby this is) the Auto-raise does fire regardless of whether the signal has been pulled up or not. There's an issue in the bug tracker relating to this somewhere, but it's proving somewhat elusive as I speak... Log in to reply |
TORR should be on by default 17/05/2015 at 19:16 #72375 | |
Muzer
![]() 718 posts |
Hmm, so that presumably means the interlocking doesn't include routes being set over it or something? Is it possible to raise the level crossing if the route is set but the signal at danger for some other reason than a train having passed?
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TORR should be on by default 17/05/2015 at 19:34 #72376 | |
Steamer
![]() 3958 posts ![]() |
" said:Hmm, so that presumably means the interlocking doesn't include routes being set over it or something? Is it possible to raise the level crossing if the route is set but the signal at danger for some other reason than a train having passed?It shouldn't be. A similar question was asked before ages ago, and someone said the route holds the barriers so that if the route over the crossing is cancelled with a train approaching, the barriers can't be raised until the approach locking times out. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 17/05/2015 at 19:34 by Steamer Log in to reply |
TORR should be on by default 17/05/2015 at 19:45 #72377 | |
Peter Bennet
![]() 5376 posts ![]() |
Depends on how it's coded in the Sim. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
TORR should be on by default 18/05/2015 at 16:17 #72417 | |
Lardybiker
![]() 771 posts |
" said:Honestly, of all the things affecting difficulty, I find TORR to be a pretty minor one. It only takes a moment to cancel routes (particularly if you have right-click configured to cancel routes by default, as I do, using shift to access the menu). If you forget to cancel routes, well, nothing happens. It’s not like a second train will accidentally follow a route it shouldn’t; stick locking prevents this. It’s probably not ideal procedure, but one could probably just leave all the routes set and then cancel them as needed immediately before setting a route, rather than cancelling them behind a passing train, which means you don’t add any cognitive load—you’re already in the area, looking at exactly the same signals, you basically just have to right-click before left-clicking (slightly harder for layouts that simulate mechanical lever frames where you can’t set a route up to a prior set route, but you get the idea).While I understand the need to make them easier in "beginner" mode, converting CCTV's to AHB for a beginner mode is not a trivial task for a dev as you'd be dealing with two types of crossing and hence, two complete separate sets of data. However, there is another option and it's one I've made extensive use of in my update to South Humberside. Instead of an making the crossing AHB, you treat it as iff there is a "Gate Box" controlling the crossing instead. It keeps the crossing as a single CCTV crossing type, keeping the data easy to deal with for the dev, while maintaining the option for either complete manual control as a CCTV crossing OR automatic operation for the "Gate Box". Obviously there is a degree of artistic license used as a gate box for a particular crossing may not exist or indeed, may never have existed, but it is one way to make sims with crossings easier for a user to deal with. Log in to reply |
TORR should be on by default 18/05/2015 at 16:22 #72418 | |
Stephen Fulcher
![]() 2055 posts |
Karl adopted a similar concept in Shrewsbury whereby there is an option to turn the crossings off - they are drawn on the sim but have no functionality.
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TORR should be on by default 18/05/2015 at 16:25 #72419 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
" said:Karl adopted a similar concept in Shrewsbury whereby there is an option to turn the crossings off - they are drawn on the sim but have no functionality.The idea and data for which he obtained, with agreement, from Wimbledon! ![]() SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: headshot119 |
TORR should be on by default 20/05/2015 at 04:00 #72505 | |
Hawk777
![]() 386 posts |
Ah, well, from the actual signaller’s point of view those are pretty much identical—in both cases you get to ignore the crossing. So, either way!
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TORR should be on by default 20/05/2015 at 07:02 #72508 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Just a simple question. TORR isn't rocket science, nor it is new technology. Why don't all signal boxes with VDU panels have TORR?
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TORR should be on by default 20/05/2015 at 08:29 #72513 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
" said:Just a simple question. TORR isn't rocket science, nor it is new technology. Why don't all signal boxes with VDU panels have TORR? Some VDU workstations are actually controlling relay interlockings. TORR isn't rocket science, to be sure, but it most definitely is expensive in relays, hence being confined to a few of the busiest boxes until SSI came in. Retrofitting to a relay interlocking is likely to be even more expensive, given the need to cut it in to a live interlocking (and especially if there's wire degradation issues, which I suspect might not be uncommon), and offers no significant advantage. So it doesn't happen; those signallers have to wait until resignalling proper comes to their patch. Log in to reply |
TORR should be on by default 20/05/2015 at 08:55 #72514 | |
mfcooper
![]() 707 posts |
My first signalling job was a VDU system (Westcad) that controlled relays and had no TORR - Stratford (North London Line). (Pictures here) If you "overset" a route with a train in the section ahead, there was no visual difference compared to a train having just used the route. Numerous times a trainee had managed to cancel a "used" route *just* as the previous train cleared the section, forgetting they had actually overset the route, and ended up giving the following train a change of aspect. Log in to reply |
TORR should be on by default 20/05/2015 at 12:37 #72525 | |
Stephen Fulcher
![]() 2055 posts |
Max, you would be surprised at the number of places that in reality do not have TORR. Some control systems are incompatible with it too - the WR turn-push panels and OCS panels for instance need the signalman to physically return the switch to normal for a route to clear out. Push-push isn't so bad because the entry signal button remains in the same place, but it would take a lot of work to retrofit TORR, and if you only did part of a signal box then the chances for confusion would be high. Interestingly Matt, the Western panels with both turn-push and push-push have flashing lights to signify a route that has been used but remained set, so there would be an easy way to tell if the route had been used and still left in, or cancelled and restroked. I do not know of any other system that does anything similar though, and there is certainly a risk of confusion between a signal that needs to be restroked and a signal that has been restroked but yet to clear because the conditions have not been met. I believe they may have retrofitted TORR to the remote interlockings of the former Reading Panel when it was put into the IECC at Thames Valley Signalling Centre, but done so back at the office end. They would have had to do something to get the ARS to work. Last edited: 20/05/2015 at 12:39 by Stephen Fulcher Log in to reply |
TORR should be on by default 20/05/2015 at 12:50 #72527 | |
mfcooper
![]() 707 posts |
" said:Interestingly Matt, the Western panels with both turn-push and push-push have flashing lights to signify a route that has been used but remained set, so there would be an easy way to tell if the route had been used and still left in, or cancelled and restroked. Stratford NLL was meant to have this kind of feature (the signal stem was meant to go dark or flash, I can't remember) but it didn't work. " said: I do not know of any other system that does anything similar though, and there is certainly a risk of confusion between a signal that needs to be restroked and a signal that has been restroked but yet to clear because the conditions have not been met. Yeah, the new LOROL driver still on their probationary employment didn't like it when there was a new starter on the desk :S Log in to reply |
TORR should be on by default 20/05/2015 at 14:32 #72530 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Well thanks everyone who responded to explain the real technicalities of this issue. Much more challenging in real life than operating a fairly standardized sim.
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TORR should be on by default 20/05/2015 at 19:59 #72537 | |
Frankley Junction
![]() 37 posts |
" said:Unlike many other sims, TORR in Derby is unchecked by default, at least at Beginner standard.Getting right back to the original issue, notwithstanding everything that has been said, I agree with Maxand. When learning SimSig as a beginner, there is a LOT to take in. I was unaware both of the potential to modify the XML, and Shift + right click doing the converse of the position of the check box in the F3 Options Control tab. The Wiki does comprehensively state: Quote: Right-click cancels RouteHowever, this is buried deep within and not likely to be easily discovered by newbies. Bear in mind also that in many single and multiplayer scenarios, the reality is that people play short staffed, looking after a number of panels. So I would suggest that a feature should be added to the F3 control panel to enable/disable TORR at will. I don't agree with some colleagues that not having TORR enabled does not significantly increase the workload, particularly as it is sometimes very hard to see which TCs are awaiting a signaller operated route release and which have yet to be traversed by a train. The Wiki should make the various right click options, and their implications, much more obvious for new players than at present. Log in to reply |
TORR should be on by default 20/05/2015 at 22:26 #72541 | |
Steamer
![]() 3958 posts ![]() |
" said:
The problem is, how? In addition to the Options page, it's also mentioned in shortcut keys. The latter is linked to directly from the main 'General information' page, as well as the 'Shortcut keys' section of simulation manuals. You probably could chuck the information in half a dozen other pages, but then you run into the issue of duplicated information, bloat, and massive pages that in turn makes it even harder to highlight the important information. Unfortunately, I think it's inevitable that with a program as complex as SimSig there's going to be an extensive manual just to cover everything, so naturally certain things are going to end up 'buried'. All I can suggest is sitting down and reading a few sections every night until you've covered everything. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 20/05/2015 at 22:26 by Steamer Log in to reply |