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Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 18/07/2016 at 16:14 #83630 | |
chrisdmadd
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So the box closed for 45 mins or so! I've actually simulated this on one of my hosts before at swindid. Now thinking how much fun this will be on my next host at the cross! If anyone was involved in today's incident let me know how it was controlled. Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 18/07/2016 at 17:08 #83632 | |
madaboutrains
![]() 313 posts |
The last fire was a fire in the UPS room! Batteries are replaced now but you can see the burned patch from the last fire still! ![]() Post has attachments. Log in to view them. RIP Feltham Panel 1 Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 18/07/2016 at 19:01 #83638 | |
Peter Bennet
![]() 5377 posts |
I was caught up in this this evening waiting for 1P10: ran about 30 mins late. What I was wondering is what happens when an alarm goes off, are the train left to run to the next red signal as routed or do they get put back to Red? What happens when drivers start ringing in and there's no one there? Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 18/07/2016 at 19:05 #83639 | |
headshot119
![]() 4869 posts |
" said:I was caught up in this this evening waiting for 1P10: ran about 30 mins late.I was told last time I visited a large signalbox the usual procedure is to just let trains continue upto the next red signal. A GSMR broadcast is put out by control to advise drivers the box has been evacuated and to await instructions. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Peter Bennet, chrisdmadd |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 18/07/2016 at 20:48 #83642 | |
Red For Danger
![]() 171 posts |
" said:I was caught up in this this evening waiting for 1P10: ran about 30 mins late.You were lucky - I was delayed for over an hour. Stuck on a swelteringly hot and packed train that had just came down from Hornsey carriage sidings is not the best way to spend a summer's evening. The problem was compounded by a TCF that happened shortly afterwards that blocked out platforms 0-3 which held us up for a while longer, and added to that there was a broken down southbound Class 91 at Stevenage. Whoever was on shift today at the Cross certainly earned their money...! Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 18/07/2016 at 23:33 #83645 | |
dwaynedibley
![]() 30 posts |
" said:" said:I hear that approach a lot from signallers but I must say I disagree. I always tell signallers to return signals to danger before evacuating. This is for the simple reason that on some areas of the network we have long sections of autos. So a train could potentially travel long distances without a signaller monitoring their progress. If an emergency were to arise there would be no one to manage it. while control could potentially put out a REC call on the GSMR on behalf of the absent signaller, a REC call isn't the only action a signaller would take in an emergency so having trains running around the network without a signaller monitoring their progress seems dangerous to me.I was caught up in this this evening waiting for 1P10: ran about 30 mins late.I was told last time I visited a large signalbox the usual procedure is to just let trains continue upto the next red signal. A GSMR broadcast is put out by control to advise drivers the box has been evacuated and to await instructions. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Peter Bennet |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 18/07/2016 at 23:39 #83646 | |
headshot119
![]() 4869 posts |
" said:Well I suppose one way of looking at it, you're taught from a young age that generally speaking when a fire alarm goes off you get out as quickly as possible. Let's take Radyr signalbox as an example, it's a fairly large NX panel driving two Solid State Interlockings. There are no Signal Group Replacement Switches, only one ESOC per interlocking. Do you: 1) Leave the building as soon as the alarm sounds get control to put out a GSMR broadcast 2) Stay and pull up every route and pull the ERS on each auto then leave 3) Pull both ESOC buttons then leave (and deal with the fall out from the nuclear buttons) I can think of a few Westcad workstations where you'd have a similar set of choices. I'm not saying you are wrong by the way, just trying to promote some discussion. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 18/07/2016 at 23:51 #83647 | |
pedroathome
![]() 906 posts ![]() |
" said:" said:And just adding onto this, but I could imagine a busy area, replacing signals before leaving would cause a lot of SPADS, and I wonder how many drivers would be happy to continue once the signal box has been repopulated.Well I suppose one way of looking at it, you're taught from a young age that generally speaking when a fire alarm goes off you get out as quickly as possible. Let's take Radyr signalbox as an example, it's a fairly large NX panel driving two Solid State Interlockings. There are no Signal Group Replacement Switches, only one ESOC per interlocking. Do you: James Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 19/07/2016 at 05:42 #83648 | |
Peter Bennet
![]() 5377 posts |
" said:" said:This was the dichotomy behind my question.Well I suppose one way of looking at it, you're taught from a young age that generally speaking when a fire alarm goes off you get out as quickly as possible. Let's take Radyr signalbox as an example, it's a fairly large NX panel driving two Solid State Interlockings. There are no Signal Group Replacement Switches, only one ESOC per interlocking. Do you: Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 19/07/2016 at 07:38 #83649 | |
dwaynedibley
![]() 30 posts |
" said:" said:I see your point and agree that 99.999% of the time option one on your list above would work without issue. Its the small risk of a safety incident that concerns me.Well I suppose one way of looking at it, you're taught from a young age that generally speaking when a fire alarm goes off you get out as quickly as possible. Let's take Radyr signalbox as an example, it's a fairly large NX panel driving two Solid State Interlockings. There are no Signal Group Replacement Switches, only one ESOC per interlocking. Do you: I think at the end of the day it has to come down to the specifics of the different boxes. Different LOMs have different approaches. The area I work in, a train could travel 18 miles on autos, travelling over several level crossings and bridges etc. Between the OMs and LOMs we have decided that it would be an unacceptable risk for trains to travel this distance without a signaller at the workstation. My main argument during this discussion was that with no one manning the local phone line and concentrator on the panel or workstation an emergency call could go unanswered. We have access to both SGRC and ESOC for every workstation so it wouldn't be a problem to operate these before leaving. If it is ever a choice between safety and performance I would pick safety every time, and I would encourage any signaller to do the same. Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 19/07/2016 at 15:01 #83655 | |
GeoffM
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For those that are interested, the "nuclear" option Karl describes is that when an ESOC (emergency signals on control - one big red button per interlocking) is pressed for several seconds, the power is cut to the interlocking which means everything trackside goes to its most restrictive state (points locked in their last position, signals at red). But also all logging is also stopped (since the interlocking is dead) which means a loss of information if something were to happen - not to mention trying to work out what is where when everything restarts as the train describer is going to be little help. These days SGRC (signal group replacement controls) are used in preference, which are on-screen controls (or buttons on panels) to put back signals in a specific area, such as 1-2 controls for a large station. The interlocking is still running (and logging) though, so full tracking of trains still takes place. Not a rapid way to replace all signals but then neither is pressing an ESOC for each interlocking for 15 seconds! SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 19/07/2016 at 17:22 #83658 | |
GW43125
![]() 495 posts |
" said:For those that are interested, the "nuclear" option Karl describes is that when an ESOC (emergency signals on control - one big red button per interlocking) is pressed for several seconds, the power is cut to the interlocking which means everything trackside goes to its most restrictive state (points locked in their last position, signals at red). But also all logging is also stopped (since the interlocking is dead) which means a loss of information if something were to happen - not to mention trying to work out what is where when everything restarts as the train describer is going to be little help.I've seen the buttons before, I wondered if anyone knew of any incidents where they may have been used before? It seems like a rather crude way of doing it, because of the potential fallout-and how long would it take to reset afterwards? Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 19/07/2016 at 17:35 #83660 | |
madaboutrains
![]() 313 posts |
Touch those buttons. Takes ages and lots of money to put back to normal apparently!
RIP Feltham Panel 1 Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 19/07/2016 at 17:43 #83664 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
" said:Touch those buttons. Takes ages and lots of money to put back to normal apparently!Do NOT touch those buttons. Some have paper flaps to avoid being inadvertently pressed, or are even in a box away from the workstations. If you "touched" one of those buttons and managed to cause a reset I suspect that would be the last of your 'box visits. GW43125, the fear when the IECC was introduced in the 1980s was that a workstation would lose contact with the interlocking and the signaller would be running blind. Cutting the power is a simple, effective, if drastic way of providing that safety cord. As I say, since then there are other methods, not to mention more confidence in the systems. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 19/07/2016 at 17:43 #83665 | |
madaboutrains
![]() 313 posts |
" said:" said:I never said I touched it.Touch those buttons. Takes ages and lots of money to put back to normal apparently!Do NOT touch those buttons. RIP Feltham Panel 1 Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 19/07/2016 at 17:51 #83666 | |
madaboutrains
![]() 313 posts |
![]() ![]() ![]() ^ I would presume these would be used instead of the big red button. Post has attachments. Log in to view them. RIP Feltham Panel 1 Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 19/07/2016 at 18:50 #83667 | |
Jersey_Mike
![]() 250 posts |
" said:Has anyone actually performed a risk assessment, because you might be imposing some fairly substantial costs on people based on gut feelings. I'll need to confirm, but in the same vein I think mission critical operations centers in the US may have fairly conservative evacuation policies for essential employees. Friend told me that Amtrak moved its dispatch office from 30th St Station to its own building in Wilmington because every time there was a bomb scare it was awkward having the dispatchers not evacuate. Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 20/07/2016 at 01:45 #83681 | |
Sparky
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" said:[quote="dwaynedibley" post=83649]That sounds like management were I work. They stand in front of us every day preaching safety is our 1st priority, buuuutttt when you raise a control for an assessed hazard the next statement is usually "can't it be done cheaper" or just straight out "it costs too much" So safety is our 1st priority until the cost is known I intend to live forever. So far so good Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 20/07/2016 at 01:49 #83682 | |
Sparky
![]() 84 posts |
" said:That sounds like management were I use to work. They stand in front of us every day preaching safety is our 1st priority, buuuutttt when you raise a control for an assessed hazard the next statement is usually "can't it be done cheaper" or just straight out "it costs too much" So safety is our 1st priority until the cost is known I intend to live forever. So far so good Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 20/07/2016 at 02:00 #83683 | |
flabberdacks
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" said:" said:Bunch of my mates got dragged over the coals for evacuating when told to by the fire alarm a while back. Words like 'industrial action' thrown around. Absolutely unbelievable to me that anyone would put cost over lives.That sounds like management were I use to work. They stand in front of us every day preaching safety is our 1st priority, buuuutttt when you raise a control for an assessed hazard the next statement is usually "can't it be done cheaper" or just straight out "it costs too much" Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 20/07/2016 at 03:11 #83684 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
" said:I'll need to confirm, but in the same vein I think mission critical operations centers in the US may have fairly conservative evacuation policies for essential employees. Friend told me that Amtrak moved its dispatch office from 30th St Station to its own building in Wilmington because every time there was a bomb scare it was awkward having the dispatchers not evacuate.Bear in mind the signalbox in question is a 1970s structure so doesn't have the zone separation and fire walls that modern buildings have. It's a small building anyway, so if there really was a fire, it's going to be pretty close to your backside. I was involved in a near evacuation of a more modern signalling centre that did have zones and firewalls. In the end they didn't evacuate but it was pretty close - the "smouldering" was actually on the signalling floor and smoke was drifting across the workstations so it was in the same zone. But it was an electrical issue that had more bark than bite so once the errant device was unplugged things cleared pretty quickly. All this time the fire alarms were going off though. Unauthorised modification to a desktop (non-signalling, non-vital) PC :doh . Interlocking rooms are often under the operating floor and have fire suppression systems - halon? If the fire alarm sounds when you're in there then you need to get out ASAP. I went to an interlocking "tower" (ground level room) in Indiana once, either CSX or Norfolk Southern, can't remember. Anyway, the question was asked what happens in an evacuation. The answer was, "well, we can transfer control to Chicago... except nobody in Chicago is qualified to control this area so it's rather pointless" (the Chicago location was a good 4 hour drive from this location - on a good day) :doh SimSig Boss Last edited: 20/07/2016 at 03:12 by GeoffM Reason: What's up with the formatting? Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 21/07/2016 at 08:12 #83712 | |
Giantray
![]() 342 posts |
This is an image of a Signal Group Replacement soft key on a Westcad system. It can also be used by keyboard commands. With Westcad unlike IECC, there are no physical buttons to use, everything is on screen or via keyboard commands.![]() Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Professionalism mean nothing around a bunch of Amatuer wannabees! Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 21/07/2016 at 10:53 #83718 | |
madaboutrains
![]() 313 posts |
" said:This is an image of a Signal Group Replacement soft key on a Westcad system. It can also be used by keyboard commands. With Westcad unlike IECC, there are no physical buttons to use, everything is on screen or via keyboard commands.Some westcads have switches. RIP Feltham Panel 1 Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 21/07/2016 at 16:13 #83719 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
" said:" said:Where? Not saying you're wrong, just curious.This is an image of a Signal Group Replacement soft key on a Westcad system. It can also be used by keyboard commands. With Westcad unlike IECC, there are no physical buttons to use, everything is on screen or via keyboard commands.Some westcads have switches. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
Kings Cross Signal Box Closed - Fire Alarm Activation 21/07/2016 at 19:25 #83720 | |
madaboutrains
![]() 313 posts |
" said:" said:" said:Where? Not saying you're wrong, just curious.This is an image of a Signal Group Replacement soft key on a Westcad system. It can also be used by keyboard commands. With Westcad unlike IECC, there are no physical buttons to use, everything is on screen or via keyboard commands.Some westcads have switches. ![]() EMCC Post has attachments. Log in to view them. RIP Feltham Panel 1 Log in to reply |