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| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 10:59 #95473 | |
bugsy
1795 posts |
Some time ago, several years in fact, I was driving to Dorking in Surrey in the early evening when, as I approached the level crossing at Betchworth the barriers started to lower. I’ve used this route quite a few times and you should time your journey carefully so as not to get delayed at this location. On this occasion, I didn’t get it right- bad timing, so I got caught out! Well, I thought that I would check how long it was between the lowering of the barriers and the train arriving at the station. Would you believe 5 minutes! You can imagine what happens during the morning and evening rush hours can’t you. It was a stopping train on route between Redhill and Dorking. Is it really necessary for motorists to have to wait that long? As I said earlier, it happened several years ago. I don’t know if the same thing still occurs today. Perhaps someone with knowledge of the control of trains in this area would like to shed some light on this. I’d be interested to know. Thanks in advance. Bugsy Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 13:09 #95482 | |
jrr
95 posts |
I know nothing about Dorking area, but there can be a similar wait at Oakham for eastbound passenger trains as the gates have to be closed to road traffic before the train can be signalled into the station. You then have to wait for the train to come in, all station work to be completed, and the train to depart ... because the overlap for the station signal goes across the crossing. Ultimately it's all about safety, the first thing drilled into me when I trained as a heritage railway signaller. I have had to keep gates closed a lot longer than 5 minutes on some occasions.
Last edited: 30/05/2017 at 13:10 by jrr Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 13:23 #95483 | |
jc92
3701 posts |
Same at kiveton park and Dodworth. The barriers have to be down for the train to make it into the platform in the first place.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 15:31 #95485 | |
postal
5269 posts |
jrr in post 95482 said:... because the overlap for the station signal goes across the crossing.It is my understanding that the overlap does not consider the LC as an obstruction. That understanding comes from a 2012 discussion in regard to Red Cow LC at Exeter in this topic. Is it possible that the Betchworth LC is actually before the starter signal so that barriers have to be down to allow the home signal to clear and give the train access to the platform?. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 30/05/2017 at 15:35 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 15:42 #95486 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
Gobowen Crossing needs to be lowered for down trains stopping at Gobowen as there's a risk to road vehicles should a SPAD occur. I imagine this is the case elsewhere. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 16:07 #95487 | |
DriverCurran
695 posts |
Indeed the lowering of crossing barriers where platform, signal and crossing are all in close proximity, even if not mandated in the rule book, would be considered industry best practice. Paul You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 16:11 #95488 | |
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postal
5269 posts |
The OP noted that his question refers to an incident a while ago. At that time the RSSB standard would have been GKGN0692 Iss 2. This includes: GN07 Where a level crossing is located either within a signalling overlap, or between a home signal and the clearing point, or between an ETCS block marker and the supervised location, the GE/RT8000 Rule Book permits the signaller to authorise train movements towards that stop signal or ETCS block marker when the level crossing is open to the road. The document has now been superseded by RIS-0792-CCS Iss 1 but this contains far less about the operational set up and more about the general principles. This document includes: A.3 Minimum distance of stop signals from level crossings A.3.1 It has been historical practice to position stop signals at least 50 m from the level crossing, or 25 m where the level crossing is immediately beyond a station platform; however, these distances are not generally applicable due to the variability of level crossing risk, and signal positions need to be assessed on a case-by-case basis. The Signal Overrun Risk Assessment process, as outlined in RIS-0386-CCS, is used to confirm that the position of the signal is acceptable. RSSB research project T1007 has provided an add-on to the SORA Tool in order to assist with the assessment of level crossing signal positioning. This presumably means that whether a train can be signalled up to signal just before a level crossing while the crossing is still open to road traffic will depend on a local risk assessment. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 16:15 #95489 | |
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Zoe
258 posts |
So in some cases if there is a platform immediately in rear of a level crossing, would the barriers need to be lowered even for a terminating train (and then raised once the train has stopped)?
Last edited: 30/05/2017 at 16:16 by Zoe Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 16:20 #95490 | |
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JamesN
1612 posts |
bugsy in post 95473 said:Some time ago, several years in fact, I was driving to Dorking in Surrey in the early evening when, as I approached the level crossing at Betchworth the barriers started to lower. I’ve used this route quite a few times and you should time your journey carefully so as not to get delayed at this location. On this occasion, I didn’t get it right- bad timing, so I got caught out! Well, I thought that I would check how long it was between the lowering of the barriers and the train arriving at the station. Would you believe 5 minutes! You can imagine what happens during the morning and evening rush hours can’t you. It was a stopping train on route between Redhill and Dorking. Is it really necessary for motorists to have to wait that long?As a manually controlled CCTV crossing; the down time for the barriers at Betchworth can be quite variable. Reigate SB has annunciators for both roads that sound in the signalbox when the signalman should be lowering the barriers for a typical train; but the key word there is typical. The down (Reading-bound) road strike-in is a treadle a few hundred yards Reading side of Reigate station, not far from RG83 signal. If the crossing sequence is started then and there are no delays giving crossing clear, a train approaching line speed won't then see a single yellow (and thus brake and lose time) at the next signal; RG85. As to why it took so long - and knowing the train service there very very well I agree 5 minutes is a little exceptional - It may have been slippy - in which case the train would have taken longer to get from the strike-in to the crossing. There may have been a delay at Reigate. The train may have been early at Reigate and the signalman thus lowered the barriers early. The Signalman may have lowered the barriers for an Up train that then had an issue. There could have been a fault with the crossing or signalling equipment that required the barriers closing to work around.... You'd need to ask the signalman there and then if you wanted to know, although the reply probably wouldn't be too polite! The bottom line though is that a Level Crossing isn't really a public right of way. The Railway can (and does) close the barriers at a Level Crossing as and when it feels like; for as long as they want - and motorists and other crossing users just have to deal with that. The Railway does endeavour to minimise disruption to motorists; and indeed it's the busyness of this particular crossing and others along the route that have currently stalled GWR's plans to run 3 trains per hour on the Reading - Guildford - Redhill - Gatwick route. Log in to reply |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 16:24 #95491 | |
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JamesN
1612 posts |
postal in post 95485 said:jrr in post 95482 said:Depends on the crossing; while formally you are correct - a Level Crossing does not constitute an obstruction in the overlap - there are many, many examples across the country with instructions that state the barriers must be down before a train may approach the protecting signal. In some cases it is enforced through the interlocking; others it is just an instruction in the box footnotes.... because the overlap for the station signal goes across the crossing.It is my understanding that the overlap does not consider the LC as an obstruction. That understanding comes from a 2012 discussion in regard to Red Cow LC at Exeter in this topic. Red Cow the protecting signals are a fair way back from the crossing - much further than for example Betchworth discussed in the OP. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 16:46 #95492 | |
Dick
388 posts |
bugsy in post 95473 said:Well, I thought that I would check how long it was between the lowering of the barriers and the train arriving at the station. Would you believe 5 minutes! You can imagine what happens during the morning and evening rush hours can’t you. It was a stopping train on route between Redhill and Dorking. Is it really necessary for motorists to have to wait that long?People around here would kill for only 5 minutes delay, in the peak periods 20-25 minutes is not uncommon at the ECML crossing at Holme on what is a very busy road. In fact the barriers quite often descend again before the queue has cleared!! Not helped by the gridlock situation of traffic making a right turn immediately after the crossing in the face of the oncoming queue in the other direction. We were due to get a bridge but of course that was cancelled in the budget cuts. Log in to reply |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 17:36 #95493 | |
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DriverCurran
695 posts |
Zoe When I was a driver on the Tonbridge - Hastings line it was common practice to approach Robertsbridge on the down with a terminating train (in connection with engineering work) and find the barriers down, which would then raise once at a stand, at one time we also had a train that was booked to sit at Robertsbridge for 5 minutes in the morning and again the barriers would normally be down, then raise and finally lower again for departure. One morning the signaller forgot the train waited for 5 minutes and I came round the corner to find the signal showing a proceed, I think I saw at least 3 cars turn around during the wait. Paul You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 17:38 #95494 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
jrr in post 95482 said:I know nothing about Dorking area, but there can be a similar wait at Oakham for eastbound passenger trains as the gates have to be closed to road traffic before the train can be signalled into the station. You then have to wait for the train to come in, all station work to be completed, and the train to depart ... because the overlap for the station signal goes across the crossing. Ultimately it's all about safety, the first thing drilled into me when I trained as a heritage railway signaller. I have had to keep gates closed a lot longer than 5 minutes on some occasions. That's actually the result of attempts at reducing the delay to both road and rail traffic rather than a safety issue. It's perfectly legitimate to allow a stopping passenger train to approach OM3 (the Up section signal, on the end of the platform) with the barriers raised. Indeed, that used to be the normal method of operation when Brooke Road crossing was an AHB. The local council complained, understandably, when that changed to lowering the barriers in time to clear the distant, which did lead to the barriers being down for much longer. The TOC weren't happy with the old way of working though, because it put a minute or so into Up trains (OM2 is approach controlled from red with OM3 at danger). The 'compromise' (waiting for TES from Langham, by which time the train was past, or passing, the distant and thus braking for OM2) seemed to me to be taking the worst of both approaches! The only restriction (in the special instructions and not enforced by the locking) is that a train not booked to stop must not be allowed to approach OM3 from either the Up Main or the Up Goods with the barriers up, and that is a SPAD mitigation thing (there have been a couple of potentially nasty SPADs there). Log in to reply |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 19:11 #95496 | |
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bugsy
1795 posts |
postal in post 95485 said:[quote=jrr;post=95482] ... because the overlap for the station signal goes across the crossing.I can understand that. It's the case in Reigate for Dorking bound trains. However, in this case the staion platform is after the crossing Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 30/05/2017 at 19:36 #95499 | |
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bugsy
1795 posts |
Quote:People around here would kill for only 5 minutes delay, in the peak periods 20-25 minutes is not uncommon at the ECML crossing at Holme on what is a very busy road. In fact the barriers quite often descend again before the queue has cleared!!Sorry to hear about that Dick. Obviously other people get delayed more than I do. I'm feeling guilty now. Perhaps I'll time it better in the future. JamesN. You have given me an understandable and satisfactory answer.Thanks a bundle. Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Dick, JamesN |
| Why did I have to wait this long? 31/05/2017 at 22:11 #95539 | |
Red For Danger
172 posts |
On a similar vein, I decided to use the crossing on the ECML at the Everton crossing (just North of Sandy on the Peterborough SIM) one morning during the peak and got stuck for nearly 1/2 an hour. The barriers refused to open ( there must be quite a distance between the treadles and the crossing to cope with 125mph running) while abut 7 or 8 trains ran through - it certainly made me late for work that day..... 
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| Why did I have to wait this long? 31/05/2017 at 22:40 #95541 | |
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JamesN
1612 posts |
Red For Danger in post 95539 said:On a similar vein, I decided to use the crossing on the ECML at the Everton crossing (just North of Sandy on the Peterborough SIM) one morning during the peak and got stuck for nearly 1/2 an hour. The barriers refused to open ( there must be quite a distance between the treadles and the crossing to cope with 125mph running) while abut 7 or 8 trains ran through - it certainly made me late for work that day..... :(Point of order - While the Betchworth example I quoted used treadles for the annunciator; not every level crossing is equipped with them. Some use track circuit occupation, or berth steps to achieve the same function; while others have no annunciator equipment at all. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: thickmike |