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| modelling is line clear? 24/08/2010 at 13:48 #1667 | |
jc92
3687 posts 
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first of all id like to say that central scotland sim is highly impressive and the way that AB mechanical working has been simmed is in my opinion, very good. however i just wondered as an idea for an improvement, whether every mech box could request a slot to send trains to the next box in order to sim is line clear? in effect allowing the advance box to deny a train entry and protect its clearing point and also adding to the AB feel of the sim?
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| modelling is line clear? 24/08/2010 at 13:48 #10956 | |
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jc92
3687 posts
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first of all id like to say that central scotland sim is highly impressive and the way that AB mechanical working has been simmed is in my opinion, very good. however i just wondered as an idea for an improvement, whether every mech box could request a slot to send trains to the next box in order to sim is line clear? in effect allowing the advance box to deny a train entry and protect its clearing point and also adding to the AB feel of the sim?
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| modelling is line clear? 24/08/2010 at 14:25 #10957 | |
AndyG
1842 posts |
An option is for each box to collar its home signal when not able to accept a train, ie when the CP is not clear. This indicates to the box in rear not to set the route from their starter to the home signal. When line is clear to the CP, removing the collar indicates line clear. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| modelling is line clear? 24/08/2010 at 15:22 #10960 | |
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jc92
3687 posts
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thanks andy. a nice simple solution
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| modelling is line clear? 24/08/2010 at 15:46 #10961 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
and the de-luxe version would be to use General Isol.(blue)=line blocked, Traction Isol (magenta)= Train on line.
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| modelling is line clear? 24/08/2010 at 16:05 #10963 | |
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Zoe
252 posts |
AndyG said:and the de-luxe version would be to use General Isol.(blue)=line blocked, Traction Isol (magenta)= Train on line. But you only get one pull with each line clear so the collar should be replaced immediately when the box in rear pulls off. Log in to reply |
| modelling is line clear? 24/08/2010 at 17:38 #10969 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
The latest version of the NEScot simulation which was used at the London 2010 meet (a time-limited 'Alpha' or 'Beta' version as it is still in development and had some bugs that need ironing out) has a new AB Working feature which is described/'shown off' quite well here. Hopefully the developer, Peter Bennet, can implement that feature on the AB areas of CScot in due course. Hope this helps. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| modelling is line clear? 24/08/2010 at 17:48 #10971 | |
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jc92
3687 posts
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thanks uktm. an amazingly good system. hopefully it will work properly when released. a joy for me as i prefer AB to TCB. also gives more variety. would be interesting to see 10 people on the sim ABing to each other
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| modelling is line clear? 24/08/2010 at 18:29 #10977 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
It sure is a great system, I had the pleasure of working with it at the London 2010 meet. Cannot recall any bugs with the actual AB working 'buttons' themselves so that's a good thing, but unfortunately there were other bugs with the simulation, although I cannot fully recall what they were now - perhaps an extended hangover from the meet! And for anyone looking at the link I've previously given, don't go thinking that the new AB Working is too daunting. I did think that at first but after just a few clicks here and there I was mastering the buttons like a pro!
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| modelling is line clear? 24/08/2010 at 18:50 #10981 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts
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Looking good, but having gone this far, would it not be desirable to 'properly' replicate block indicators in each direction from each box, rather than just a single coloured dot for the pegging block indicator? Thus each box would have two sets of three roundels (Normal/LC/TOL) for each block section; one acting as the pegger and therefore clickable, the other being the non-pegger and repeating the indication shown by the pegger at the other end of the section. Finally there'd be a roundel for the block bell. I reckon it'd look a bit more complete and even realistic (look at the block instruments set into various panels around the country; Woodburn Junction being one example that comes to mind immediately, on the Sheffield area), and would allow for greater functionality within the "fun factor" - allowing the block to be placed straight to TOL for blocking back, obstruction danger, SLW etc., or straight back to Normal from LC for cancelling.
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| modelling is line clear? 24/08/2010 at 18:55 #10982 | |
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jc92
3687 posts
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late turn- i thouroughly agree that a basic block indicator would be more appealing but im not sure how much additional work would be required in terms of programming. bearing in mind the sim is designed for TCB, the system uktm showed us seems like a good compromise, short of reworking the sim coding completely. as an aside, it would be amazing for someone to produce an AB simulator that could be chained betweenn a number of boxes 
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| modelling is line clear? 24/08/2010 at 19:55 #10985 | |
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Zoe
252 posts |
Also the pegging instrument should be the lower of the two. It would confuse me to start with having a pegging instrument at the top. jc92 said: as an aside, it would be amazing for someone to produce an AB simulator that could be chained betweenn a number of boxes :P If I ever get my health back..... Log in to reply |
| modelling is line clear? 24/08/2010 at 22:33 #10989 | |
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Jsun
212 posts |
I think the roundels as block indicators are fine, but I'd much rather have to use full bells and manually work the indicator. Much more fun than 1 click 2 click though an interesting compromise it is.
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| modelling is line clear? 24/08/2010 at 23:10 #10993 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Zoe said:AndyG said:<technicality mode>and the de-luxe version would be to use General Isol.(blue)=line blocked, Traction Isol (magenta)= Train on line. Are the boxes fitted with track circuits in advance of the section signals (due to the Carmuirs West Jn - Greenloathing not being TCB, I assume it's not fully track circuited, so the details of where is TCd is somewhat a mystery!)? If so, it's likely one train, not one pull. </technicality mode> Log in to reply |
| modelling is line clear? 25/08/2010 at 10:15 #10999 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts
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Regardless of whether an absolute block section is TC'd throughout or not, the section signal will be released for one pull only per 'line clear'. The presence of track circuits wouldn't normally directly affect the working of the section signal (other than replacing it to Danger?) - that'll continue to be released by the block. The TCs might affect the block indicator - placing it to or maintaining it at TOL, just as the berth TC at the box in advance would. For that reason, and also for the practicalities of confirming that a train has arrived complete, they'd normally be indicated at the box in advance - the chap in rear has no real need for anything beyond his section signal? Edit: I'm waiting to be proved wrong, of course, but a couple of locations I know of have a TC in advance of their IB home, and they're 'one line clear, one pull' still. Log in to reply |
| modelling is line clear? 25/08/2010 at 13:25 #11006 | |
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jc92
3687 posts
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the provision of rotary locking or electrical interlocking on a section signal should lock it after it has been replaced to danger. TCs within a block section are simply for train detection. if a TC fails to clear then the block instrument will fail to release back to normal (where TCS are provided which is rare outside of box station limits.) edit: also of course, rotary block instruments or sykes lock and block will require the TC or treadle to show occupied and then clear in order to release the block, otherwise a release key must be used. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| modelling is line clear? 25/08/2010 at 13:51 #11008 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
One-Pull is used in certain areas with track circuiting. If a line clear has been obtained, and the signal is pulled off, then restored, with no train has been detected passing the signal via TCs, then it is sometimes legitimate to keep pulling the signal off to your heart's content - until a train passes it, thereby activiating the TC in advance - and also forcing the block instrument to "Train On Line" in some cases. There are a number of occasions where you might end up with TCs in advance of your section signal, such as: On single line. At Bridgnorth on the SVR, the outermost signal is the Down Home, 1000 yards out - the Section Signal, the Up Advanced Starter, is a mere 500 yards. The line is TC'd all the way from the Down Home (with one past it, in fact, to show trains waiting at it), so there's a circuit in advance of the Up Advanced Starter. Certain station layouts. Platforms 4-6 at Exeter St Davids were in advance of E. West Box's Section Signals - but for reasons such as wrong direction moves out of the platforms and calling on arms, it's quite important that these lines are track circuited, providing circuits in advance of the Section Signal. Admittedly I don't know if either of these are actually One Train without trying the levers to see - I have a feeling EW might well be - but both are cases where it could be applied. It's not necessarily the case that it is "One Train" when a TC is in place in advance, but it's certainly an option. Reasons for implementation are likely to do with replacing the signal unintentionally (oops, was that Lever 22? I meant Lever 24...) and being able to restore operations quicker when a train is stopped by a signalman (replace signal to danger to stop a train, train is found to be in good order, train can immediately be sent on its way by pulling the signal off again). Log in to reply |
| modelling is line clear? 25/08/2010 at 13:59 #11010 | |
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Zoe
252 posts |
Danny252 said:On single line. At Bridgnorth on the SVR, the outermost signal is the Down Home, 1000 yards out - the Section Signal, the Up Advanced Starter, is a mere 500 yards. The line is TC'd all the way from the Down Home (with one past it, in fact, to show trains waiting at it), so there's a circuit in advance of the Up Advanced Starter. <pedantic> Are you sure it's actually called "Advanced Starter" and not "Advanced Starting" </pedantic> Log in to reply |
| modelling is line clear? 25/08/2010 at 14:36 #11012 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Zoe said:Danny252 said:Not sure either way - but I know it's not a Home, and that it's AdvancedOn single line. At Bridgnorth on the SVR, the outermost signal is the Down Home, 1000 yards out - the Section Signal, the Up Advanced Starter, is a mere 500 yards. The line is TC'd all the way from the Down Home (with one past it, in fact, to show trains waiting at it), so there's a circuit in advance of the Up Advanced Starter. 
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| modelling is line clear? 25/08/2010 at 15:18 #11014 | |
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jc92
3687 posts
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Zoe said:Danny252 said:i beleive its just regional differencesOn single line. At Bridgnorth on the SVR, the outermost signal is the Down Home, 1000 yards out - the Section Signal, the Up Advanced Starter, is a mere 500 yards. The line is TC'd all the way from the Down Home (with one past it, in fact, to show trains waiting at it), so there's a circuit in advance of the Up Advanced Starter. 
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| modelling is line clear? 25/08/2010 at 15:22 #11015 | |
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Zoe
252 posts |
jc92 said:i beleive its just regional differences ;) Not when we are both talking about the same region. Log in to reply |
| modelling is line clear? 25/08/2010 at 16:30 #11021 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts
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Pedantic point - it's very common for boxes to have track circuits outside station limits: the berth TC in rear of the home. Bewdley - Kidderminster isn't AB, so not relevant! I see what you mean with Exeter West, but I don't see why a fairly standard design would be amended just to provide 'one LC, one train' not 'one LC, one pull'. Not sure whether the rules specifically require the train to be cancelled and re-offered anyway, regardless of the provision of locking on the section signal.
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| modelling is line clear? 25/08/2010 at 16:53 #11027 | |
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Zoe
252 posts |
Exeter Middle's Homes are halfway down the platform from Exeter West. Track Circuits CD, DE and EG are immediately in rear of these but or on Exeter West's diagram, I assume they would still force the block to train on line and so prevent you sending more than one train into the section.
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| modelling is line clear? 25/08/2010 at 16:55 #11028 | |
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jc92
3687 posts
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Late Turn said:it's very common for boxes to have track circuits outside station limits: the berth TC in rear of the home. berth TCS prevent TOL returning to normal or line clear but are still mainly for detection for station limits purposes. i mainly meant that full TC fitting is rare in block sections. Late Turn said: Not sure whether the rules specifically require the train to be cancelled and re-offered anyway, regardless of the provision of locking on the section signalthe 1950 green book isnt specific except for saying that rotary/lock and block instruments require resetting. if the block regulations are properly followed then one train 1 clear 1 pull/1 clear is irrelevant: a) the train will proceed through, the signal will be replaced and that is that. no line clear no extra pull. b) if the signal was replaced it should only be due to 6 bells or another emergency stop, in which case the signalman dropping a peg is required to cancel the train if he stops it, and then reoffer it when the line is cleared. this would rerelease the signal. in both cases it is irrelevant wether the instruments are 1 pull or 1 train "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| modelling is line clear? 25/08/2010 at 18:23 #11032 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts
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The section signal might be replaced if the train's unable to proceed immediately - for any number of reasons. You say that the train must be cancelled and reoffered (I'll see what the RSSB book says when I have chance) - so in that case there'd be no benefit to allowing multiple pulls of the section signal (but only one train) if the train needs to be reoffered in any case. The main purpose of the berth track circuit (other than as proving for Welwyn Control) is to remind the Signalman of the presence of a train standing at the home signal, and forcing the block to TOL is a key part of that. I agree that providing TCs elsewhere in an AB section is less usual, and would more than likely be to allow an arriving train to be proved complete - thus forcing the block to TOL isn't so essential (but probably desirable?). Log in to reply |