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| TT 2007, indirect problem point faliure 25/10/2010 at 13:26 #1937 | |
Charlytos
268 posts |
Over points faliure there are several questions and answers on other simmulations. My question is because I have few knowledge over those details. Had point faliure Netherfield Jn crossing, affecting to 5 or 6 trains with departure from Nottingham, 2 trains to line Neward and 3 to Allington line. How point failure was the same crossing, those trains were stopped on line. Well, I reload sim of new, then wich each train direction Allington I made the next: disable its timetables, use reverse, pass red signal and shunt options and send it by opposite track, which was free of traffic. After entered on Allington line, return to its normal track and enable timetable of new. The question is the next, how I made, Is or isn't correct to make it so? Please clarify it, thanks!... Log in to reply |
| TT 2007, indirect problem point faliure 25/10/2010 at 13:26 #12129 | |
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Charlytos
268 posts |
Over points faliure there are several questions and answers on other simmulations. My question is because I have few knowledge over those details. Had point faliure Netherfield Jn crossing, affecting to 5 or 6 trains with departure from Nottingham, 2 trains to line Neward and 3 to Allington line. How point failure was the same crossing, those trains were stopped on line. Well, I reload sim of new, then wich each train direction Allington I made the next: disable its timetables, use reverse, pass red signal and shunt options and send it by opposite track, which was free of traffic. After entered on Allington line, return to its normal track and enable timetable of new. The question is the next, how I made, Is or isn't correct to make it so? Please clarify it, thanks!... Log in to reply |
| TT 2007, indirect problem point faliure 26/10/2010 at 11:13 #12154 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
In theory, to do that manoeuvre in the UK you would need to set up Single Line Working. Much of my knowledge is historical but I think many of the principles still apply. It used to be Section N of the Rule Book; others have pointed out that the modern Rule Book is available online and I'm sure the modern rules are in there. The basic principle is that a Pilotman is appointed to ensure there can be no head-on collision. There is only one pilotman for each single line section and he wears an armband (red with the word 'Pilotman' in white) to identify him. Special arrangements must be made where there are catch points or unworked trailing points (rare nowadays) or for trailing points worked by a ground frame. No train is permitted to enter the single line unless the pilotman is present and personally gives permission to the driver. If several trains are to follow in the same direction he stays where he is to speak to each driver in turn. When the next train is to come from the other end of the single line section the Pilotman must ride with the driver to get him to the other end. He must show the armband to anyone working on the track as he passes so they know which way the next train will run. The single line section must be regarded as a single block section for trains going in the "wrong" direction so the pilotman must get permission from the signalman before giving permission to the driver. I think I'm correct that, if signals in the "right" direction are working normally, trains may follow each other controlled by the signals. Even then the Pilotman must get the signalman's permission to authorise the train to enter the single line. UK rules make setting up SLW slow and complex (and of course it needs suitably qualified staff available in the right place, which often does not exist on our railways today) so although it would be perfectly legal to do as you say it would be very unlikely to happen. So far as I can see, the modern way is to just wait, or if it is going to be a very long time to terminate all trains (in both directions) and set up an emergency bus service until the failure is repaired. Even when I was working for the railway, SLW would be very unsual as a points failure would probably be repaired by the time it could start being useful; the only time I knew it it was to clear a train blocked on the wrong side of a station by a derailment and which needed to be cleared so the breakdown train could get to the site and on that occasion we were lucky that the Area Manager was close by and a movements supervisor was available to act as pilotman. Log in to reply |
| TT 2007, indirect problem point faliure 27/10/2010 at 12:55 #12184 | |
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Charlytos
268 posts |
Thanks by your answer. I have tranlated with google your text to understand it well. Basically is technical details over signalman actions. My question wasn't that. My question was, if the form how I fixed the mentioned problem, was or wasn't correct to make it so!...
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| TT 2007, indirect problem point faliure 28/10/2010 at 08:52 #12207 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
Sorry if I've misunderstood Carlos, can you clarify for me: are you asking if it was correct to run trains past the failure on the opposite track? If that was the question, my answer stands. I can perhaps simplify it to say that there are rules to permit this action but it is unlikely they would be implemented simply for a points failure (the details of my explanation perhaps tell you why). If I misunderstood your question I wonder if you can clarify exactly the point you are asking. Log in to reply |
| TT 2007, indirect problem point faliure 28/10/2010 at 13:40 #12211 | |
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Charlytos
268 posts |
Well kbarber, I put of new the question. Had point faliure just crossing Netherfield Jn, being problem for trains running from or for Nottingham platforms by cause of point failure. Several trains with departure from Notthingham platforms, between 5 and 7 hours, were stopped from Nottingham platforms on sevaril red light signals until Netherfield Jn faliure point. Then I reload of saved session of new, that had the Nethefierld Jn point faliure. On that moment first train only was broken by mentioned point faliure. Then made the next: disable timetable, reverse, 2 times pass red signals and shunt options. When arrived running reverse near Nottinghan area, then change manually of track, new reverse option running by opposite line until Allington line entranche. Then passes to its normal track running the rest normal, enabling its timetable of new. The other 2 trains direction Allington how were on their platforms, was not departure time yet. Then for these 2 trains, change manual track to go by opposite track, disable their timetables and equal that first train, when arrived to entrance of Allington line, return to their normal track line, enabling their timetables of new. The 2 trains direction Newards had not problem, because failure Netherfield Jn point was only for trains running to Allington line. The trains to Newards destination ran normal with timetable enabled. These were the passes made for me and the question was, if was or wasn't correct to make it so. I hope kbarber that you can understand it well now!... Log in to reply |
| TT 2007, indirect problem point faliure 28/10/2010 at 16:26 #12215 | |
postal
5263 posts |
Carlos kbarber will correct me if this answer is wrong, but I think that you have carried out moves which are possible in SimSig but which would not be allowed in real life. If you wished to make those moves in real life you would need to bring in a pilotman. To find a pilotman, get him to the site and apply all of the rules before a train could pass would probably take a lot longer than it would take for the engineer to mend the broken point. So you have saved a lot of delay for trains in the sim, but you would not have been able to carry out those moves in reality. If you want to give your English - Spanish translation skills a lot of work (or you want to trust Google's translations), the complete rules are laid out in a 64-page rule book here. JG “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| TT 2007, indirect problem point faliure 29/10/2010 at 11:30 #12235 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
I think I begin to see what Carlos is saying. If I'm right, there are 2 separate issues here. 1: I think what you're saying, Carlos, is that you had a save made just after the points failure started. You continued to play the original game until many trains were queued up at red signals. You then restarted from the save you had already made. 2: You then moved the trains that would otherwise have queued up past the failure on the opposite line. My answers: 1: When I was a signalman there were times I would dearly have loved to be able to go back to an earlier save of the situation; reversing the clock would've made an awful lot of problems so much easier to get out of  2: What you then did was indeed Single Line Working as I described above (many thanks, John, for finding the link). As Postal said, it is legal but would in real life take so long to implement that it would not help the situation. Log in to reply |
| TT 2007, indirect problem point faliure 29/10/2010 at 13:16 #12238 | |
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Charlytos
268 posts |
Thanks Postal and Kbarber to clarify it with more details. Postal I have read the special document from link that you have put. I put continuation detail image of page of that document, with drawing being that image equivalent to my case mentioned:
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| TT 2007, indirect problem point faliure 30/10/2010 at 10:00 #12249 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
Carlos, I don't think that page of the rule book covers your situation. It is not drawn to scale and the blocked section might be several kilometers between the crossovers, it is to allow a four-track line with lines paired by direction (as on Kings Cross) to be used as a double track when both lines in one direction are obstructed. It still requires a pilotman to be appointed and all the necessary forms to be completed. It would not be implemented within an area such as Nottingham Station where there are signalled moves to cover all the movements you want. The section from Nottingham to Netherfield is a conventional double-track and normal SLW rules would have to be applied, legal but probably taking over an hour to implement. After that you could imagine that abandoning timetables and reversing trains is equivalent to the phone calls that would be needed between signalman and pilotman. When I was a signalman (30 years ago now) reversing trapped trains out from the failure would be done under the supervision of an inspector and would all be done very carefully, probably leading to long further delays. Probably better to divert trapped trains (abandon timetable and send Allington trains via Newark). In real life there might be further delays if drivers didn't have route knowledge - a driver who knew the Newark route would have to be found and sent by taxi (probably from Nottingham) to conduct over the diversion but probably still quicker and easier than SLW. Passengers for intermediate stations would be advised to use local buses if they exist (Control arranging for tickets to be accepted so signalman needs to take no action) or transferred by special bus or taxi (again Control action with no signalman involvement). Remember that at Newark it is possible to get on to the East Coast Main Line and travel that way to Grantham, where the Allington line joins, or maybe just carry on to Lincoln and sort out there, or lots of other possibilities that Control would arrange.
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| TT 2007, indirect problem point faliure 02/11/2010 at 16:02 #12352 | |
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Charlytos
268 posts |
Kbarber I understand your last details. I ignore them all those technical details, that you can to put me. You worked how signalman and know perfectly the work. I am a single player of Simgsig only. I understood from your first reply over pilotman and other equivalent details. My basic idea over image sent, was that image showed by document is approximately my problem on Netherfield Jn point failure. Without enter on technical details over same, that I cannot to mention, because repeat I am a single player of Simsig only... Log in to reply |
| TT 2007, indirect problem point faliure 19/11/2010 at 10:35 #12568 | |
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Charlytos
268 posts |
New train problems added to this thread. Trains 6M140, 6M149, 6M146, 6M148, 6M147. Entrance from Toptom siding up, destination Ratclife PS. Problem begins with 6M140, I make call, answer received how Line disconnected. After I make call of new for next 6M14 trains, getting continuously the same answer. Then, have to send the trains to line A or B how I think it. Receiving after mistake message of train sent to that line. Ignore if is bug, or why is that? Line disconnected, is track or phone problem? Log in to reply |
| TT 2007, indirect problem point faliure 23/11/2010 at 18:54 #12610 | |
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Charlytos
268 posts |
More problems of trains added. Timetable default 2007 of simultation. Problem is over 10:40 hours, 3 trains have destination to Nottingham 3 platform on short time. 2 of those trains are stopped waiting their departures and third is stopped on signal near Mansfield, waitng to enter to platform 3. Much traffic trains on that moment coming from up and down lines to Nottingham platforms and all them busy, not having any free until more of 11 hours. The 3 trains mentioned are: 1D11, 6E64 and 1D55. Train 6E02 arrives to Nottingham DN line with 20 minutes delay having how destination Allington. Very difficult to pass, because several trains have departure direction Newarts and Allignton over that hour. If train that waits near Mansfield Jn (1D55) to enter platfom 3, should have a few more time of entrance then not problem. Could to wait well until 6E64 does its departure over 10:40 to Allington and enter on platform on time... ................ Note. I made the next, train 1D11 changed its timetable, added to Nottingham plt 3B, Nottingham Parcel Siding and reverse to Nottingham 3B, next train. Because this train stands over 30 mintes stopped on that platform and its place is necessary for 1D55 waiting on Mansfield Jn to get free platform!... Log in to reply |
| TT 2007, indirect problem point faliure 29/11/2010 at 10:54 #12705 | |
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Charlytos
268 posts |
Mew train problems found, same Trent 2007 timetable, hour over 12:40: 1) 1V30 Nottingham plt. 1. Are 3 trains around platform 1, 2 trains are stopped and 3rd waiting free line to enter platform. I moved 1V30 to Parcel siding, waiting its departure time to return it to platform 1. Then 3rd train can enter into platform 1 on time. 2) Rare bug on Sileby line Atenborough platform. Train 6D36 stops Atenborough platform 1 FL line changes to SL line. But really continues running by FL line. I have to make it reverse when arrives to Ratclife Jn zone, sending it to SL line and after run normal its timetable pass points. And problem next train don't remember ID, stops Atenborough platform 1, destination Derby. Rarely hasn't automatic departure from platform and continued stopped on same, having to make it manual departure. Log in to reply |