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| Rights when a manufacturer modifies a car part 04/11/2010 at 12:56 #1982 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
I'm normally quite good with consumer law but this one has me wondering. It appears there is a known fault with Landrover TD5 engines in that residual oil can seep into the wiring loom and eventually end up in the Engine Management Unit. it's not fatal and a good clean of the EMU plug and socket on Saturday should resolve at least for the time being. But apparently LR have modified the wiring loom since to prevent this occuring and there are two bits, one costs £25 and I can easily fit myself- but the other appears to be the rest of the entire wiring loom and costs £200 with 2.5 hours estimated fitting by an expert. Anyway the point is- given that LR have clearly acknowledged the problem by explicitly modifying the loom to prevent oil ingress and publishing a works guide on the procedure, parts and time allocation is there a case to be made that I should have it supplied and fitted FOC? Or is it really a case of wear and tear and time lapse? Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Rights when a manufacturer modifies a car part 04/11/2010 at 12:56 #12372 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
I'm normally quite good with consumer law but this one has me wondering. It appears there is a known fault with Landrover TD5 engines in that residual oil can seep into the wiring loom and eventually end up in the Engine Management Unit. it's not fatal and a good clean of the EMU plug and socket on Saturday should resolve at least for the time being. But apparently LR have modified the wiring loom since to prevent this occuring and there are two bits, one costs £25 and I can easily fit myself- but the other appears to be the rest of the entire wiring loom and costs £200 with 2.5 hours estimated fitting by an expert. Anyway the point is- given that LR have clearly acknowledged the problem by explicitly modifying the loom to prevent oil ingress and publishing a works guide on the procedure, parts and time allocation is there a case to be made that I should have it supplied and fitted FOC? Or is it really a case of wear and tear and time lapse? Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Rights when a manufacturer modifies a car part 04/11/2010 at 13:54 #12373 | |
clive
2789 posts |
If it's not fatal then it sounds to me as if they can claim it's an improved design rather than an actual fault making it unfit for purpose. You could write to them suggesting the latter; perhaps they're willing to save the cost of a small claims court case. Log in to reply |
| Rights when a manufacturer modifies a car part 04/11/2010 at 19:52 #12376 | |
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Foulounoux
26 posts |
Peter I worked for the major wiring harness manufacturer for the last 10 years. These issues fall into three camps a) Design Changes - Basically if another supplier cocks something up then its often easier to amend the wiring harness e.g. panels have the locating hole in the wrong place - its a lot easier to tell the harness manufacturer to change the length or move a clip b) Quality Problems with the harness - simple if theres a fault then the harness design is changed c) Issues that can be solved by re-designing the harness - this seems to be what you have - I had a similar case whereby the coolant was leaking onto the harness and thus rendering it useless so we had to keep on re-supplying harnesses at a cost to the OEM to deal with the cars affected. We suggested a kit to deal with the affected area but the OEM who has an excellent reputation for quality went for a replacement harness - at a large cost to them. They modified their process to avoid the issue from occurring again but there are x cars out there with the problem. In some cases they would have redesigned the harness to solve such an issue as per a) I would push LR as its clear they accept their was an issue with the oil seeping - its not the harness re-design that concerns you but the original cause of the problem the fact that by changing the harness they can solve the problem is their decision. In fact what worries me is that oil ingress into an engine harness isnt unexpected if its a lot of oil then that tends to indicate another problem, are LR just papering over the problem by redesigning the harness? Colin Log in to reply |
| Rights when a manufacturer modifies a car part 04/11/2010 at 22:57 #12377 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
My main concern is that the car is a pig to drive at the moment and this appears to be a possible cause (reading postings on other forums) and a quick look the other night I could see oil in the area of the EMU. Whether that turns out to be the cause of my problems remains to be seen Apparently the loom passes through the rocker area where it picks up the oil- which seems a silly thing to design....... Bit like the fuel filter that dangles down inside the O/S rear wheel arch which is clearly one cleanest areas to put it..... This is the instructions I've found. I'll have a good look around on Saturday and see how it all works but a bit of silicon sealer should stop it up for a while. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Rights when a manufacturer modifies a car part 05/11/2010 at 16:26 #12379 | |
postal
5264 posts |
Peter As the Land Rover documentation for which you published the link is dated 2000, I would hope that cars built after that date would have the new parts fitted. If your car is younger but still has the old parts then you might have a case with them as they sold a vehicle which was knowingly defective. However, if your car was made before the notice was published and you have managed to get that length of service out of it before the problem has arisen, I think your only hope would be some sort of goodwill gesture from the manufacturer - particularly as they note on their bulletin that a fix for out of warranty vehicles is a dose of high-temperature silicon sealant. However, I am not legally qualified, so I am quite happy to learn differently if anyone has better information. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Rights when a manufacturer modifies a car part 05/11/2010 at 16:52 #12381 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
John, Good point, just checked my V5 and it's a June 2001 which I've had since 2004 it appears (how time flies). Can't seem to relate the VIN numbers though- completely different format. Might try ringing dealer and see what they say. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Rights when a manufacturer modifies a car part 06/11/2010 at 11:49 #12385 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Well had a fiddle around and the EMU was indeed swimming in oil- but it had not come down the wiring loom so that's now out the equation. It is not clear where the oil (black so used) had come from- too far from the engine and the walls of the container were clean- all very mysterious. It's a lot more complicated than my first LandRover (series III) where everything was fixable with a hammer and a spanner- normally in that order. Added bonus is that it started - always a concern of my wife's when I've been 'working' on my car - I'll take it for a drive later and see if it's fixed.... Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Rights when a manufacturer modifies a car part 06/11/2010 at 14:32 #12389 | |
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Signalhunter
177 posts |
It's a lot more complicated than my first LandRover (series III) where everything was fixable with a hammer and a spanner- normally in that order. If that didn't work..........................The hammer wasn't big enough1 Log in to reply |
| Rights when a manufacturer modifies a car part 27/11/2010 at 10:39 #12671 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Now this is really bizarre- As above I found black oil within the plug connecting the wiring loom to the Engine Management Unit which I cleared out and all was well. Then it started to go off again so had another look and there was a bit more oil. I assumed it was just residual from before and cleaned up again. I left the whole lot disconnected to allow any excess to drip our (not easy to get into the actual plugs) but is all looked clear. There was no sign of any oil on the wires from the loom (around 20) to the plug and there is some 6 inches of the wires outside of the loom so you get a good view. Anyway I've just got in from having another clear-up of oil in the plug and it seems to me that the only way the oil can be getting there is actually down the core of the wire(s). I guess there is no physical reason why that could not be the case but it does seem really odd- anyone heard of this type of thing before?. Just had a look through my Haynes manual and it seems the wiring diagrams are deficient in showing anything about the wiring of the engine itself which is a fat load of use so I can't easily find the wire's source. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Rights when a manufacturer modifies a car part 27/11/2010 at 18:30 #12675 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
I've heard of loosely that sort of thing, and funnily enough, in a railway signalling context. I once went on a course at a S&T contractors training centre (organised by the preserved line I volunteered for at the time), which included quite a bit on cable termination, and I recall being taught that one of the reasons it's very important to do a proper termination job is that if you don't, moisture can (and will) get inside the cable. I'd assume that this applies to any liquid that's in the area - it would be very easy for liquid to get drawn into the core of a cable, either between core and insulation or between the strands of multi-core cable, by capillary action. I'd be concerned, in circumstances like this, that there might be insulation damage to a cable in an oil-heavy area - or that you have an oil leak that's near an electrical connection.
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| Rights when a manufacturer modifies a car part 28/11/2010 at 23:00 #12701 | |
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Foulounoux
26 posts |
Peter Believe me fluid can and will run through a wring loom, you should see what lengths we have to go to to prevent water ingress on motorbike harnesses, The question is though at what point is the oil getting in. Also you are certain its oil and not grease - to prevent water ingress a lot of connectors are filled with grease. Unfortunately I am now 12 months out of the business so cant offer any more direct help - ie a proper diagram. Colin Log in to reply |
| Rights when a manufacturer modifies a car part 30/11/2010 at 09:05 #12711 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Various off-topic posts deleted Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Rights when a manufacturer modifies a car part 05/12/2010 at 21:46 #12793 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Foulounoux said:Found this set of instructions which seems to explain everything- seems quite straight forward to fix. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |