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What do you want to see on the Wiki? 10/11/2011 at 19:09 #22718 | |
headshot119
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I've noticed over the past few weeks many people have mentioned either lack of information or especially with new users concern that the wiki lacks information, or the information present is missing key details, or does not fully explain how to do something. I'm not having a "dig" at the wiki, or trying to insult people who have contributed to it. But my question to the SimSig community, especially at newer members or people have found the wiki confusing or unhelpful. What do we need to do to improve it for you, what content would you like to see added, do you like the current format or are there things we can do to improve it for you, would video tutorials be helpful or do you prefer step by step text based tutorials. Give it and think and post here with what you think is needed. I'll then begin to look at where we need to get to with the wiki. Thanks Karl "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 10/11/2011 at 19:21 #22719 | |
derbybest
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A video tutorial would be good to show divided/joins. 1 should be a straightforward join as in 2 units joining/dividing and another should show a loco run round Chris Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 10/11/2011 at 19:53 #22722 | |
jc92
![]() 3649 posts |
another suggestion i have is for ALL platforms and loop lengths to be added, some sims have most, some only have a few listed, its dead annoying having to pray a train of known length will fit in a loop when a quick glance at the manual can solve things. may also help with timetable creation
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 10/11/2011 at 20:14 #22724 | |
ralphjwchadkirk
![]() 275 posts |
Personally, if I ran this site, I would install the wiki software wikipedia runs off. Simple, familiar and easy to do. I would also restructure the wiki. I wouldn't have all these "tracks", which are confusing: Quote:
So which one do you go into for the simulation manuals? I would structure these categories: Signalling principles, SimSig principles and Simulation manuals. Signalling principles would contain information about interlocking, huddersfield control, AB, TCB etc etc. SimSig principles would contain information about SimSig specifically. E.g., how to interpose a head code, how to set a route. Simulation manuals is pretty descriptive. However, I don't run this site, and I would support whatever method they chose to use. I'm as guilty as anyone - I've sat here typing about criticisms of the Wiki, when I don't actually do anything to update it. Hopefully that will change! Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 10/11/2011 at 21:07 #22727 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
I think the problem is more structure than content. Yes, a few things are missing, but what is there is not structured well. Unfortunately converting to MediaWiki format would be a rather large undertaking. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 14/11/2011 at 23:45 #22932 | |
agilchrist
![]() 258 posts |
I recently went through a project to covert a site to media wiki and to be honest its taken forever and its still not finished, so personally I would just add more to the current site. As pointed out in another thread if its not broken............ The only thing I look up constantly is platform and loop lengths, entry and exit points and length of sidings, last thing you need is an overhanging train. Blessed are the true believers, for only they shall walk the Path, and they shall be welcomed unto the realm of the Ori and made as one with Them. Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 15/11/2011 at 02:33 #22946 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Thanks Karl for raising this topic. Some of the comments in reply seem to belong to a general wish list for SimSig rather than the Wiki in particular. Some criticisms directed at the Wiki are better aimed at the writers of the sim manuals. Posting a message on the forum is not difficult for most, but editing the Wiki requires its own learning curve, which takes time. However, the Wiki has one big advantage over the forum; it is possible to return to the page after a while, edit and improve it. Editing a forum post can only be done within a short period. Someone should go through the manual pruning unnecessary duplication. For example, on the Wiki home page: Quote: User Information |Information for users of SimSig, including simulation manuals.Where do I go for a manual? The Wiki is a place for adjusting the newcomer's expectations to the realities of SimSig. IMO it is not made clear enough that: - Each sim may be so different from the last that it requires its own learning curve. Don't move on from Royston thinking you have learned enough to tackle any other sim. Each new sim will feel a bit like starting SimSig for the first time. - The large, crude, blocky, upper case graphics, along with all the page switching and scrolling required, are part of the design concept of making the display as similar to real panel displays as possible, no matter whether or not the beginner finds this inconvenient. - To fully enjoy any but the most basic sims, the player should be encouraged to purchase a large monitor or, preferably, three monitors side by side. Even a large laptop ("desktop replacement computer" ![]() - Simsig should be run in a window, not fullscreen (unless playing a sim which contains the option "Show all windows on taskbar"), in order to be able to bring up the accompanying PDF map showing signal numbers, since these are not included on the main panel. It also helps to have a browser open at the Manual page. - It may take considerable time before a newcomer remembers that there IS as a manual for each sim, since the manual is located far away from the download page from that sim and is not included with the sim download, as one might expect. - It should be explained that a feeling of helplessness after reading said manual is not uncommon. Additionally, the unpromoted Board Categories list on the Forum home page offers an excellent way to discover what problems others have had with the same sim, since the Search Engine is not the easiest to use. Even Googling with "SimSig" as a search term may provide more relevant answers. - The novice should be prepared to use extreme measures such as Remove Train early and often to avoid delaying other trains until the obfuscatory terminology associated with railway signalling, and UK railway signalling in particular, is mastered. - The player should save his game frequently even when all seems to be going well, as the next train to arrive may make impossible demands on his intellect. If he did not save the sim when all seemed to be going well, he should know how to adjust the start time to just before the problem appears, so he may practice the difficulty until he finds the solution. - The player should be given advice as to how to cram the main panel, Train list, Show timetable (for one train) and Timetables (all trains) into one screen. - The player should be informed that it is not necessary to close a train's Show timetable window before opening another, since the next train's timetable will use the same window. - The beginner should come to understand that there is no one single window that will concisely display any given train's current speed, location and next stop. He will need to have at least two windows open to gain this information and cannot reduce or otherwise customize the number of fields displayed in the Train list. Whoever half-finished the Royston tutorial should complete it, or it should be removed entirely, as it is most irritating to someone following it to be abandoned halfway through. There's far too much text and not enough walk-through with illustrations in the Wiki. I use Jing (screen capture), Paint.NET to annotate pics, and TinyPic to upload them. The Wiki should include instructions on how to add pics. Go to any game cheats website and you will see lots of walk-throughs that can only be understood with accompanying images. Graphic images are far less ambiguous than trying to do it through text. Learning SimSig is really a matter of learning it case by case, example by example. It stands to reason that information in the Wiki should be linked to actual examples in sims. The problems with this approach are that the newcomer, at whom the Wiki is primarily directed, will have to download and be overwhelmed by at least a dozen sims just to learn a few points. Royston, with its unintuitive catch points, functionless level crossings and (quite unprototypical) freight trains, is really not a beginner sim. Even Pause works differently here from other sims. No, what we need is a proper tutorial sim, which by its very nature will have to be fictitious, since it will have to incorporate just about all the features of the more advanced sims into one compact one-page package in order to keep newbies from drifting elsewhere. Let me propose one based on the major terminus of Newby (nowhere near Cumbria or Yorkshire!). It should include ARS sections, manual routing sections, etc., etc. and its manual should spell it all out so well it will become an unmitigated pleasure to run! Last edited: 15/11/2011 at 03:27 by maxand Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 15/11/2011 at 06:40 #22955 | |
Peter Bennet
![]() 5377 posts |
" said:I did spend some time creating one a few years ago for someone who was going to make a load of tutorial videos but they never did. I'm not minded to waste my time updating it or doing it again. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 15/11/2011 at 13:24 #22975 | |
clive
![]() 2766 posts |
" said:The manuals are intended to tell the user the bits they need to know for that specific simulation. The player is assumed to know the basics - if they don't, then that's what the wiki is for. Certainly we don't want the sim manuals repeating the same huge amount of stuff about how to set a route or interpose a train description. Quote: Not so. There will be things to learn about each simulation, such as the geography, and there may be special features. But 95% of the mechanics of playing a simulation can be learned playing Royston. Quote: Rubbish. Quote: I don't think I've ever removed a train while playing (as opposed to developing). The terminology isn't obfuscatory. Yes, signalling has its own jargon, but that's not the same thing at all. We all have learning curves with games. It isn't necessary to whinge just because you made a mistake. Quote: Only for those of little intellect. More seriously, all modern sims have a feature within the F3 panel that allows you to save the game automatically every N minutes. Royston is too old (at least until it gets a refresh). Quote: Or you could finish it yourself. (I don't recall who was writing it, so I don't know what they didn't finish it.) Quote: Catch points aren't unique to Royston, nor are they unintuitive once you know what they do. You seem to be whinging because you weren't aware what that symbol meant. The level crossing is fully functional. Watch the RAI light go out and the LWR one come on as a train approaches, then it raise again once the train is over it. Watch it fail if you stop a train in the wrong place for too long. Those three lights are what a real signaller gets for an AHB crossing; what were you expecting. Oh, and wait for the geese. What is unprototypical about the freight trains? The fact that they don't squash to fit between signals? The fact that the driver knows where to stop? There's nothing special about Pause in Royston; what on earth are you talking about? None of the above is, or should be taken as, any kind of an objection to more and better documentation, whether in the wiki or elsewhere (ISTR someone did some YouTube videos). Log in to reply The following users said thank you: derbybest, andyb0607, GoochyB, mfloyd, Steamer, MikeW, Sam Tugwell |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 16/11/2011 at 00:42 #23023 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
I had said Quote: Some criticisms directed at the Wiki are better aimed at the writers of the sim manuals.Clive replied Quote: The manuals are intended to tell the user the bits they need to know for that specific simulation. The player is assumed to know the basics - if they don't, then that's what the wiki is for. Certainly we don't want the sim manuals repeating the same huge amount of stuff about how to set a route or interpose a train description.I couldn't agree more with you on this, that's why I suggested all the verbosity be confined to a training sim, of which Royston now appears the prime candidate. I don't recall suggesting anything along these lines in my previous post. I think you would agree that somewhere between the the authoritative statements made in the Wiki and the manual for a particular sim lies the need for an example to illustrate (verbally and maybe graphically) any item that requires it. I don't think it helps to add a reference to the Wiki along the lines of "For an example of this, see such-and-such in the [name] sim" as the poor newbie will end up flitting from sim to sim to try putting all this together and only ending up frustrated. Better as jc92 suggested to amplify the Royston sim so that all examples point to this one and the manual can be blown up to the necessary size to accommodate the hundred and one details that are intuitively obvious to experienced players but not to newbies! Clive said Quote: Or you could finish it yourself. (I don't recall who was writing it, so I don't know what they didn't finish it.)A good suggestion, provided I communicate with the author, which I will try to do. Quote: Catch points aren't unique to Royston, nor are they unintuitive once you know what they do. You seem to be whinging because you weren't aware what that symbol meant. Exactly right. Since it wasn't even on the symbol list (it is now), I didn't even know where to begin searching. In retrospect, I should have asked the forum first. Anyway, consider me here as a mouthpiece for the silent crowd of disenchanted newbies. ![]() Quote: The level crossing is fully functional. Watch the RAI light go out and the LWR one come on as a train approaches, then it raise again once the train is over it. Watch it fail if you stop a train in the wrong place for too long. Those three lights are what a real signaller gets for an AHB crossing; what were you expecting. Oh, and wait for the geese.Good stuff - should have been in the manual, along with explanation of all the acronyms. Now I know I'm allowed to edit manuals (reminds myself to add it). Quote: What is unprototypical about the freight trains?Not freight trains, Royston itself: Quote: The supplied timetable is based on the weekday service of Summer 2003 plus a few imaginary freight trains.Clive said Quote: There's nothing special about Pause in Royston; what on earth are you talking about?Just that in Royston (probably because it's an early sim) pressing P displays "PAUSED" in the bottom LH corner, whereas in every other sim I've tried, pressing P displays a brown aspect on the main menu without any other immediate indication to the sim driver that the sim has come to a standstill. :) Quote: None of the above is, or should be taken as, any kind of an objection to more and better documentation, whether in the wiki or elsewhereHear, hear. No offence taken. Last edited: 16/11/2011 at 00:49 by maxand Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 16/11/2011 at 14:23 #23058 | |
clive
![]() 2766 posts |
" said:Well, Royston is a pretty simple sim, though there are others of similar scale (Drain being the smallest). I wouldn't object to someone writing a manual for newbies, even one based on using Royston (and then perhaps another sim), but it shouldn't be the Royston manual itself, since that might not be the first sim someone uses. Quote: Agreed. The examples in the Wiki should be self-contained (unless there's a need to move to YouTube or something like that for video). Quote: No. Royston is a real sim covering real a real bit of railway. I am not changing it to introduce things that aren't there in real life. (See also Peter's comment about the past history of a training sim.) Quote: Indeed. It should have been on the wiki, and such omissions should be brought to light. Quote: I do! But you need to understand, in return, firstly that you can help by contributing to the wiki and secondly that there may be good reasons why things are the way they are or why a suggestion is rejected. Quote: It doesn't belong in the Royston manual, since AHB crossings are a standard feature of many sims (though as it happens Royston was the first one to get one). Look at Cambridge, for example. Quote: Oh, that's the distinction between paged and scrolly sims. Try Cambridge or Stafford; they both look like that. Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 16/11/2011 at 18:06 #23065 | |
jc92
![]() 3649 posts |
im not suggesting "amplifying" royston maxand, simply that is has a basic layout, and a lack of advanced features like token requests, unique methods of working etc. im simply using it as a platform to show how things are done. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 17/11/2011 at 12:18 #23134 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Thanks again Clive for your detailed response and also jc92 for yours. Hmm. Okay, well if expanding Royston is unlikely, the alternative is Clive's suggestion, to focus on different sims which illustrate specific events very clearly and to include the time and location so the user can begin at that place and time and follow it through, even though he/she has not played that particular sim before. I'll see what I can contribute in the way of this. Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 17/11/2011 at 18:17 #23158 | |
clive
![]() 2766 posts |
" said:You may be making things more complex for yourself than you need. Royston is a fairly old build, so it doesn't include some core code features like train position, DEF, changing traction, speed classes, etc. But if a refresh build was done they would all get included and you could then use them in timetables. So if you want to demonstrate such things the best thing you can do is to get a very recent sim and write a custom timetable that demonstrates them (WembleySub has all of that lot in, IIRC). It's only if you want to demonstrate track features that aren't in all sims that you need to use a specific sim. And, even there, you may be better off writing a demonstration timetable that presents the features in turn, rather than having to tell people to start at a specific time. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 17/11/2011 at 23:02 #23175 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Thanks Clive for pointing me to WembleySub. I'll take a look at that one. I reckon any newbie can be turned into a rocket scientist if things are explained clearly enough. ![]() Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 25/11/2011 at 13:19 #23598 | |
Peter Bennet
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Tweaked the bit about shunt signal a bit but there are a few things I'm not sure about so put in some reference as a place holder- specifically the Yellow PLs www.SimSig.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=signallingprinciples#shunt_signals If somsone can fix that please. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 25/11/2011 at 13:25 #23599 | |
ralphjwchadkirk
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I was just going to add something about the Yellow PLs - but the page is locked?
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Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 25/11/2011 at 13:25 #23600 | |
headshot119
![]() 4869 posts |
Peter I'll had an explanation regarding the yellow aspect.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 25/11/2011 at 13:31 #23601 | |
Forest Pines
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I have put a bit in (you can tell I'm bored at the office today!) explaining what they mean - any proper railwaymen please feel free to correct it if I've got the terminology wrong anywhere. I have also expanded on the meaning of "LOS" to explain what the abbreviation stands for. Edit: me editing it is probably the reason for the page-lock! Last edited: 25/11/2011 at 13:31 by Forest Pines Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 25/11/2011 at 13:42 #23603 | |
headshot119
![]() 4869 posts |
That makes perfect sense what you have put Forest Pines. Can't think of a better way to explain it myself. Though on the matter of Permissive PLS I can only think of one in Simsig and that's EJ107 on Exeter. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 25/11/2011 at 13:56 #23604 | |
Peter Bennet
![]() 5377 posts |
Just realised that a Y - PL does not actually work as such on SimSig as they are in reality normal shunt signals simply drawn in yellow. There are some on Bristol but I don't recall the Exeter one (will check) and there are a fair few Yellow shunts on NEScotland when I get that released (don't ask). Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 25/11/2011 at 14:04 #23606 | |
ralphjwchadkirk
![]() 275 posts |
It would be good to get some pictures in that section. I'll probably start doing that in an hour or so.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: headshot119 |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 25/11/2011 at 16:20 #23612 | |
ralphjwchadkirk
![]() 275 posts |
I've been adding and editing bits all afternoon. Presumably some have spotted my changes - I assume they are all right? Pictures - will boot up SimSig and do them now ![]() Log in to reply |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 25/11/2011 at 16:38 #23614 | |
headshot119
![]() 4869 posts |
All of your changes seem great to me. ![]() "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: ralphjwchadkirk |
Re: What do you want to see on the Wiki? 25/11/2011 at 17:20 #23622 | |
ralphjwchadkirk
![]() 275 posts |
Does anyone object to me removing these pages? They seem to serve no real purpose. [table] [tr] [td]http://www.SimSig.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=marksandpit[/td] [td]Not edited since January 2010[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]http://www.SimSig.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=upload_temp[/td] [td]Not edited since November 2009[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]http://www.SimSig.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=welshdragonsandpit[/td] [td]Not edited since November 2009[/td] [/tr] [/table] Log in to reply |