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| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 03/12/2011 at 15:09 #24358 | |
ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
" said:Thanks everyone for your comments and help. I had no idea this could get so complicated. Just wait until you start a sim with AB working then!  Quote: I understand the point you are trying to make, but what you say seems to be at variance with the fact that in some sims I'm sure I can set shunt routes. Were you referring specifically to passenger trains? Did you mean "from GPL to GPL"? You can set any route you like providing the various conditions are achieved. The interlocking does not know whether it is a passenger train or not, only you do. Passenger trains should not be routed by GPLs or subsidiaries (however GPLs may clear as a preset shunt when routing from main aspect to main aspect) unless permissive working is authorised. The extract from the rule book I posted explains it. If you scan set the route by using main aspects then that is what you must do, unless one of the exceptions applies. Quote: Had to look up that GPL acronym. For those like me who have not encountered this term it stands for Ground Position Light (signal), i.e., the standard light signal (as opposed to semaphore signal) used for shunting. Good example here in Wikipedia. (Must add to Wiki glossary) Yep, GPL is ground position light (although they are not always on the ground!). Quote: The amount of in-depth knowledge required to follow protocol in setting routes appears to be quite staggering. You guys have given me a lot to re-read, which I don't mind. Yes, there is a lot of knowledge needed! I suggest you read these modules from the RSSB rule book - they may help you put it all in some kind of perspective: http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Book/Rule%20Book%20Modules/TS%20-%20Train%20Signalling/GERT8000-TS1%20Iss%206.pdf (General Signalling Regulations) http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Book/Rule%20Book%20Modules/TS%20-%20Train%20Signalling/GERT8000-TS2%20Iss%202.pdf (Track Circuit Block Regulations) Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 03/12/2011 at 16:18 #24362 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:Some of you have said that I shouldn't be routing a Class 1 passenger train through a Parcels platform. If you check 1C801's timetable, you will see it specifically mentions the PCL platform at Bristol Temple Meads.I don't believe 1C80 is a passenger train. Refer to postal's explanation in post 19. FF Last edited: 03/12/2011 at 16:25 by Firefly Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 04/12/2011 at 11:33 #24419 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
AB = Absolute Block. (added to Wiki Glossary). Thanks Ralph for the references - will follow them up. Also thanks Firefly for explaining why 1C801 needs to stop at Parcels. I overlooked it earlier. This info deserves to be in Bristol's manual, if it isn't already. Maybe one day this will all come together for me. Last edited: 04/12/2011 at 11:50 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 04/12/2011 at 14:38 #24428 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
Perhaps the sim manuals should include tables of possible routes from signals? Similar to what is featured on route learning diagrams drivers get.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 04/12/2011 at 15:05 #24432 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:I don't think it's that bad. In general, if you can trace a route along the diagram from one running signal to the next, you can set a route between them. If you can trace a route from one shunt signal to another signal (of any kind), you can set a route. If you can trace a route from a main signal to a shunt signal that doesn't have a main signal beyond it, you can set a route. The only odd case is main to shunt with a main beyond it where, as we've discussed, the route might or might not exist. Now there are exceptions. Euston throat has lots of potential alternatives but only some of them are valid. It's complex enough that I list them all in the manual. Sometimes an "obvious" route isn't available; I can think of a couple in Cambridge (around Chesterton Junction). These aren't my invention; they were taken straight from official documentation. Sometimes a route requires some specific condition before it can be set. For example, there are some shunt routes in Euston (from 66 and 67 are examples) where you can't set a route if the exit signal already has a route set - you have to set them in the right order. But you get a warning message if you try it. (There's also a strange case where you have to set the routes in the non-obvious order: 81 to 69 or 71 must be set after setting from the latter into the shed.) And other sims will have their own examples. But, in my opinion, everything like that should either be in the manual or should generate a clear warning message when you do it wrong. Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 04/12/2011 at 20:41 #24451 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:Perhaps the sim manuals should include tables of possible routes from signals? Similar to what is featured on route learning diagrams drivers get.In the process of doing these- see the reference section of the Lime Street manual for how they will look. (I stole the layout from Clive's tables for Euston. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 04/12/2011 at 20:41 by Steamer Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 05/12/2011 at 05:40 #24464 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Clive wrote: Quote: In general, if you can trace a route along the diagram from one running signal to the next, you can set a route between them. If you can trace a route from one shunt signal to another signal (of any kind), you can set a route. If you can trace a route from a main signal to a shunt signal that doesn't have a main signal beyond it, you can set a route. The only odd case is main to shunt with a main beyond it where, as we've discussed, the route might or might not exist.Nice summary, thanks for that. headshot119 wrote: Quote: Perhaps the sim manuals should include tables of possible routes from signals? Similar to what is featured on route learning diagrams drivers get.That might be OK for drivers, but when you multiply that by the number of signals in a sim, I think the number possible routes to be listed would get out of hand, on the basis that signallers would control a much larger area than a particular driver might have to learn for a particular route. The root of the problem is that sim players, particularly beginners, suddenly find themselves unable to set a route or otherwise signal a particular train from entry to exit, on a particular timetable. They may not want all the solutions possible, all they want is one working solution to get them going again to prevent other trains banking up. Some route settings are, let's face it, less than intuitive. My solution is, for any given TT, a train-based list of routes to set, omitting the obvious ones, e.g., 5B81 [arrival time] [Entry point] 83 - 146 - 73 (N:2B26) 97 - 42 [exit point] Where the numbers after the headcode represent the signal numbers. In other words, a "cheat sheet" for those who get into trouble. This should be a searchable file, such as .html or .txt, rather than part of the manual (to prevent weighing the manual down with a lot of unnecessary detail). This could be in the Wiki as an ancillary file, ideal for anyone to add difficult trains to this list and maybe improve upon or provide alternatives to, the routes already listed. Since the entry and exit points are also listed, anyone reading this list can search the list for the appropriate entry or exit point. Where more than one train uses the same route, only the first few headcodes need be listed, keeping the size of the list down. This is only for learning the sim and incidentally teaching signalling rules. Only to be used if one is really stuck, after all it can be an added challenge to figure the route out for oneself. This would be the kind of list that grows slowly, starting with the most difficult trains and being contributed to by anyone who has something to add. Similar to what happens here in the forum, except I find it a lot harder to search for the same answer since threads can be long and our search engine is less refined than it could be. I don't see it as the responsibility of the sim author to provide such a list (or maybe just the really difficult lines); rather it should be a sign of appreciation by simmers who have worked out the routes and wish to pass this on to newcomers to the sim. After all, isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery? :) And yes, I'm happy to put my money where my mouth is. Last edited: 05/12/2011 at 05:43 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 05/12/2011 at 09:54 #24471 | |
Meld
1111 posts |
Max I suggest you take a look at the simplfier for Alans new '85 Edinburgh t/t (its in the Ballast's zip) Was just an Idea I was playing around with and can be adapted to add your own notes on sheet 1 as the other sheets are locked for editing. If people think this style of simplifier is useful I'l produce some more for other sims as time permits. Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Last edited: 05/12/2011 at 09:57 by Meld Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 05/12/2011 at 17:01 #24482 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:
The pause button does exist, and with the exception of the rather odd SHumbs (and maybe Worksop?) "can't do anything when paused", you can set routes. Quote: My solution is, for any given TT, a train-based list of routes to set, omitting the obvious ones, e.g.,For those timetables with 1500 trains, that'll be an interesting one to type up... Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 05/12/2011 at 17:12 #24484 | |
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Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:
Worksop, South Humberside, Exeter, Westbury, SwinDid, Brighton and Oxted from memory. However, I seem to remember Geoff saying somewhere that the feature would be removed on the next release. " said:
Agreed. Surely the manual can cover any unusual routes, and if anyone has a problem with a particular train, they can ask on the forum since those types of posts are generally sorted quickly. Add that to the route tables I'm in the process of producing, that base is pretty much covered. Personally, I think it would be a lot of effort to go to for not a lot of gain. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 05/12/2011 at 20:37 #24499 | |
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Lardybiker
771 posts |
" said:" said:That is correct. There were a lot of comments about not being able to set routes and answer calls while paused whilst playing and while it was done to echo reality, it was obviously not well received by the community at large so Geoff decided to undo it. I am not sure what sims will have this in though as it will depend on the core code version Geoff undid the changes in.. Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 06/12/2011 at 13:45 #24561 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Meld wrote: Quote: Max I suggest you take a look at the simplfier for Alans new '85 Edinburgh t/t (its in the Ballast's zip)Thanks, I did (it's in the Edinburgh 1985 Extras download). It's an open format Excel spreadsheet. I seem to recall one sim I tried recently had a Simplifier option in the Show menu, but I couldn't see one in this actual sim. Does this mean I must open it in a separate (Excel or OpenOffice) window? I'm still not sure what aspect of playing SimSig a spreadsheet simplifier is intended to make simple that isn't already displayed in the TT itself. Just to use it requires some skill at spreadsheets, which not all of us have. With all due respect, why would anyone not debugging a TT want to know which trains pass through a particular station? I think I would prefer some file which just lists the signals through which routes must be set, for particularly troublesome trains. For that reason I would probably find a .doc or .txt file easier to compile and maintain (I'm doing this now). Its value, as usual, depends on the data you put into it. It wouldn't need to be sorted by anything other than headcode, and manual sorting at the time of data entry would seem just as easy. Searching any text document format for a particular train, station, signal or rule should be very straightforward. Plain text files, for all their simplicity, are very small, therefore very fast to open, search and edit. Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 06/12/2011 at 13:50 #24562 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
Simplifiers are used widely in signalboxes everywhere. They allow the signalman to view such things as platform occupations to help with signalling and replatforming in disruption. Knowing the trains through a particular station can be useful if planning diverts, or planning blocks. For example, the Cannon Street signaller at London Bridge has a simplifer showing the arrival and departure times of each train at CST along with the assigned platform. This means that he does not need to log onto TRUST and drill down until he finds the right train to get its platform number of next working. All the information he needs is immediatley avaliable in an easy to read and understand format. Last edited: 06/12/2011 at 13:52 by ralphjwchadkirk Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 06/12/2011 at 14:01 #24564 | |
jc92
3690 posts |
" said:i see you havent met failures, delays or regulation yet :) " said: except when that route is closed, or where due to late running etc the train wants to go another equally acceptable way also, the simplifier is provided diagramatically for edinbrgh station, whats difficult to read about that. easier to understand than your proposed routing system "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 06/12/2011 at 14:31 by jc92 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Meld |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 06/12/2011 at 17:12 #24588 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
John's (MELDs) spreadsheets are exceptionally good as Joe points out during disruption, it's easy to see exactly what platforms you have free to divert a train into, you can then easily pull up it's next working to check if it can use that platform or not, you can also use it to make simplifiers with a lot more information than the in built F11.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: jc92, Meld |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 06/12/2011 at 22:28 #24604 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:My solution is, for any given TT, a train-based list of routes to set, omitting the obvious ones, e.g.,Sounds like a ridiculous amount of work. Is this spoon feeding really necessary? Surely this forum and the wiki can give you enough info to route a train from a to b? I'm all for teaching and helping people with signalling in general and also I'd welcome any efforts to help with the idiosyncrasies of each sim, however to create a document that tells people which button to press, button by button is a bit much. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: postal, Steamer |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 06/12/2011 at 23:47 #24611 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
I had no idea simplifiers were used in real life, thought they were simply a convenience for SimSig players. With that in mind, I'll take another look at them when I start enjoying disruptions. :) Just one more question: is there a menu option within the Edinburgh sim (for example) to enable the simplifier to be displayed from within the sim, rather than viewed using an external application (e.g., Excel). I can't see a menu option here, although I do recall seeing a Simplifier option in one other sim. To Firefly: my train-based list of routes is intended to be fairly short and only for the few difficult trains I mentioned, the kind of thing I would compile mainly for my own use. On returning to a sim after six months I might wonder "How did I route that?" Rather than rediscover the method, I'd revert to my list of "solutions". A searchable list of locations is probably more along the lines of what I had in mind. I'm working on this too. Last edited: 06/12/2011 at 23:50 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 06/12/2011 at 23:49 #24612 | |
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jc92
3690 posts |
melds simplifier is a far more informative version of the simplifier (F8 menu in sim) that some of the newer sims provide. therefore its only available in excel format as he has produced it off his own back as the 85 timetable is rather busy and complicated compared to many others. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 06/12/2011 at 23:52 #24613 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Ah, I see there are two versions of simplifiers, Meld's and the built-in version. Thanks for explaining that and providing the shortcut key, which I'd forgotten.
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| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 07/12/2011 at 07:27 #24625 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
Where is Meld's simplifier?
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| Re: No overlap at Parcels platform 07/12/2011 at 07:31 #24626 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
See my post #37.
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