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| train crew relief activity 02/01/2012 at 00:17 #26604 | |
jc92
3690 posts |
having discussed this with pascal (58050), i have come up with an idea for the problem of train crew relief in SimSig. essentially, at the moment, if train arrives at its stop early, theres a good chance it will block the lines up for a long period of time (landor st is of course the worst for this). if an activity was included for crew relief (maybe RLF in activities) when a train stops, this would a) clearly show what the stop is for b) allow for the potential to code a phone call in for a driver to phone in X mins (randomly generated) before the train is booked to stop for the relief activity. something along the lines of driver reporting ready to releif train 4*** at landor st junction. once this call is received the train will not stop for longer than is needed for relief (say two minutes?), conversly, if the train arrives before the call has been recieved, it would be a gamble as to when the releif driver turns up. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Josie |
| Re: train crew relief activity 02/01/2012 at 00:48 #26605 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
Interesting suggestion which reminds me of the US sim Train Dispatcher. Many of their sims involve freight trains covering long distances where crew relief is essential. Each train that appears comes with a "crew expiry time" - if you can't get the train to its destination, or into a siding of appropriate length, in time, the train simply stops and blocks all traffic for several hours until a relief crew appears! Fortunately, one can disable this extra challenge, in addition to specifying an earlier crew changeover time in order to avoid this. All ideas which could be worked into SimSig. Log in to reply |
| Re: train crew relief activity 02/01/2012 at 01:22 #26607 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
The set down only option will prevent the train stopping at a location for an exended period of time., thus simulates the train stopping, changing driver and then ready to go, it is then up to the signaller to decide whether he continues early or not.
Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Re: train crew relief activity 02/01/2012 at 01:35 #26608 | |
postal
5265 posts 
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An ongoing debate which has been taking place (without resolution) behind the scenes since February last year about what SimSig could provide. The debate comes in two parts: 1) Should there be a simulation of real life in that the signaller receives a telephone call when a driver wishes to confirm that he is ready for duty in relieving an incoming train? In Saltley this would cause the signaller to think whether to leave an incoming train on the Slow South of Longbridge, in the loop at Small Heath or hiding on the Goods Lines and loops North of Duddeston until the phone call was received. Perhaps this could be randomised in the same way as early/late running of trains entering the sim is set up. This would require new code to generate the phone calls but the sim would still run based on the signaller decisions (including the new factor of the phone calls) and would also require the TT writer to specify crew-change locations. Presumably this would again require new code to take account of the specification. 2) For the real true-to-life situation the TT writer could then link the driver rosters by writing rules so that an outgoing train could not depart until the driver had arrived from an incoming working if it was driver turning round rather than a driver just signing on. Locations where driver changes take place include for example Landor Street crew changes on the Saltley sim or at Haywards Heath for the splitters on the Brighton sim. I guess that would require either an additional layer of coding so that the rules would take precedence over the "random" phone call for the locations where a new driver could appear but would probably be covered entirely within TT rules at Haywards Heath. For locations like Landor Street, It would also require that the signaller knew whether to wait for a phone call that the driver was available for duty or whether the driver would only be available for duty X minutes after the arrival of an incoming service. Altogether a more complex problem. Either way, it would add a nice additional element of realism to the task that the SimSig operator faces. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 02/01/2012 at 01:38 by postal Log in to reply |
| Re: train crew relief activity 02/01/2012 at 03:12 #26612 | |
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jc92
3690 posts |
" said:The set down only option will prevent the train stopping at a location for an exended period of time., thus simulates the train stopping, changing driver and then ready to go, it is then up to the signaller to decide whether he continues early or not.so drivers always turn up 30 mins early to releive a train? "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: train crew relief activity 02/01/2012 at 09:55 #26623 | |
58050
2659 posts
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This thread really only appertains to Saltley because it controls Landor Street Junction which is a traincrew relieving point for virtually 90% of freight traffic which traverses that route. The current situation within SimSig limits is very ambiguous in the sense that the timetable writer has only 3 options for trains stopping (ie 'Through Line Stop', 'set down' or having just a time input in the train departure). The problem with the set-down option is that if 4O11F is running 30 minutes early & you signal it through to Landor Street after a couple of minutes as Noel says the train should depart. Some people may argue that you could hold the train at SY.218 on the Goods which is what happens in the real world until the relieving driver contacts the signaller at Saltley PSB, whereby the signaller will then signal the train down to Landor Street. If we don't go down the road of having a traincrew relief option in the activities section, can we then have a signaller response of 'Awaiting traincrew relief' instead of having the driver ringing up every 2, 5 or 15 mins to say he is standing at a red signal. We don't need a second phone call for the signaller to answer to acknowledge the relieving traincrew is awaiting the arrival of the train at the relieving point, but the signaller needs to make a note(mentally or on a stcky note) as to what time the train is booked at Landor Street & send it down. The issues I find frustrating is when you regulate early running trains & you don't want a potential blockage at Landor Street is you get bombarded by phone calls from trains statingthey are at a red signal every x number of minutes you last specified that answer. There are enough telephone calls made on 'Centre' panel obtaining slots * other phone calls etc etc. In the real world prior to the removal of the Trainsmaster(TCS) at Bescot all Saltley drivers booking on duty would ring the trainsmaster at Bescot to book on duty first & then contac t the signaller at Saltley PSB & tell himw what train he was there to work. Traincrew from foreign depots once relieved on there inbound working would then ring the signaller & advise him what train he was working back. Centre panel signaller or another member of staff on the signal centre floo0r would contact the cabin taltley & tell whoever answered the phone which train was approaching Landor Street Junction for relief. Not an easy issue to resolve depending on your point of view. Log in to reply |
| Re: train crew relief activity 02/01/2012 at 10:16 #26625 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
If I'm not mistaken, any (early) freight train booked to stop somewhere will,unless the stop is marked as set-down only, either wait to time or depart shortly after arriving - seemingly on a random basis. The problem is, taking the example of Landor Street, you don't know which of those two a freight's going to do, so you've got no choice but to keep it inside somewhere on the approach to the area until its booked time. Does the train, as it's created and enters the sim, 'know' whether it's going to be held to time at a given location? If that's the case, in the case of specified locations such as Landor Street (and possibly only if a 'traincrew relief' box was ticked, and unless overridden by rules as Postal suggests), would it be possible to automatically generate a telephone call at a random time to advise that the relieving Driver is ready, so that you know that it can be allowed to run up to Landor Street without tying the job up? Just a few thoughts! Tom Log in to reply |
| Re: train crew relief activity 02/01/2012 at 11:16 #26632 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:If I'm not mistaken, any (early) freight train booked to stop somewhere will,unless the stop is marked as set-down only, either wait to time or depart shortly after arriving - seemingly on a random basis. That's what happens when I play it too- trains stop and then ring in at a random time between arriving and departing saying that they're stopped at a red signal. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Re: train crew relief activity 02/01/2012 at 11:29 #26636 | |
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TimB2010
77 posts |
This is an interesting topic for discussion, because it is relevant to any station-based sim as well. In my experience, during my time working for Central Trains at New St, traincrews on Hereford/Malvern services out of New St were sometimes booked to work into Snow Hill from Worcester, or into New Street before crossing to Snow Hill and then travel on foot between the two stations prior to PNB or their next working. Therefore, delays on what I refer to as "the dark side" (Snow Hill lines) could sometimes impact workings at New St, or vice versa. As Herefords in my time were almost always booked to start from plats 10/11/12 at BHM, this could play havoc with the cross city, or other expresses for the South West, and obviously, if a train was late into New St, the delay to a train at Snow Hill waiting for a traincrew to work in a late train and travel on foot from New St could cause chaos in the limited platform space available at Moor St/Snow Hill. Just a few thoughts for TT writers... Tim Log in to reply |
| Re: train crew relief activity 02/01/2012 at 11:43 #26640 | |
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58050
2659 posts
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Your absolutely right there Tom & that is the 'million dollar question', we as the signallers don't know what the sim will do to early running freights. Now ehn I've been testing & playing the 1995-1996 timetable & Joe(jc92) & John(Postal) whilst testing this timetable may have observed the same. When playing solo the majority of freight under normal conditions tend to enter the sim on time. However the other night when Daniel(onlydjw) was hiosting Saltley with the 1995-1996 timetable most of the freights were entering the sim early & from anything between a few minutes early up to 30+ minutes early. The one that stuck in my mind that night was 4O11F which came ontot the Sutton Park line 30+ minutes early & thats the first time ever I've seen that train enter the sim so early in fact in advance of other trains that when playing solo enter before it. Which when all said & done woukld represent a very real picture of what could happen in real life. Therefore the train goes on the Down Goods & would stand at SY.218 signal until its booked time. Also running early from other entry points was 6V68L, 7V31M & one or two others. 6V04D came onto the panel at Walsall running only a few minutes early,but this train was the first one booked past Landor Street after having traincrew relief there. The fact that there were 3 freights on the Down Goods one behind the other doesn't bother me it's whether you chance your arm by sending one of the early running trains up to Landor Street first & hope it doesn't wait time or you end up with the Down Main blocked until it departs. All other trains then have to go via the Down Main & cross over in front, but if one of those ends up requiring relief you block the Down Main completely & thats if you don't have any TCFs,signal or point fauilures to contend with as well. The 2 min aspects of the Saltley sim for me are:- 1. Traincrew relief at Landor Street Junction for freight traffic & as a result regualing trains. 2. Passenger traffic at Snow Hill. I think Saltley is the first sim & maybe the only sim where freight traffic regulation plays such a pivotal role. In all the other sims I've played you can get rid of the freight traffic out of the way via through lines so platforms don't get blocked up or where main lines get blocked up. Sims like Bristol, Sheffield, Trent(Nottingham) & Edinburgh all have lines where freights can be accomodated, however due to the high freight traffic pattern a Saltley I think an additional activity or something similar needs to be added to aid the signaller to regulate traffic more easily. Log in to reply |
| Re: train crew relief activity 02/01/2012 at 17:22 #26663 | |
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indian_railways_fan
72 posts |
Would it be possible to implement an(optional)special module in Simsig for booking of crews?While this is probably not directly related to a signaller's duties,it would lend more realism to the sims,especially like Saltley.It could be used in multi-play and one of the players could be exclusively handling crew bookings.They would need to keep track of upcoming freights from the F8 panel or from other chained sims and book crews accordingly as per the approximate time of arrival of the trains at the crew-change points.The person handling crew bookings would also need to keep the relevant player handling the concerned panel alerted in this regard. This option can be kept in the startup dialog so that single/inexperienced players can switch out the feature.Such a feature would also remove the uncertainty of present behavior of the trains at crew change points as in real life also,the signalman probably has a more accurate picture regarding the readiness of the crews at these points. This would also give more scope to TT writers to introduce fictional crew changes in other sims also and to make TTs more interesting. Khalid. Log in to reply |
| Re: train crew relief activity 02/01/2012 at 17:29 #26664 | |
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58050
2659 posts
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There's one major problem with your suggestion, apart from over complicating Sim-Sig. When writing timetables we (timetable producers) endeavour to use actual Working Timetables to create the timetable. To make your suggestion work properly you would need the actual traincrew diagrams for the timetable being played or used. Something very few people if any would have, especially for retro-timetables. otherwise it would be pure guess work & at Saltley you would probably have drivers from half a doaen or more depots awaiting there return workings.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: indian_railways_fan |
| Re: train crew relief activity 02/01/2012 at 22:32 #26693 | |
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alangla
7 posts |
Sounds like it's all getting a bit complicated - would it be possible to keep things relatively simple by having a "crew relief" option on the stop activity, which would put a marker on the timetable (maybe 0754, 07r56) this would then have the effect of holding the train at the appropriate location until its booked time - just make the assumption that drivers will always turn up on time. I guess the addition of phone calls from drivers arriving early would be a nice-to-have but it's really not essential. Implementing back-workings for foreign crews should be pretty straightforward if someone has the info & desperately wants to do it - simply add a rule that "train 6V00 must not leave Landor St Jct until 45 mins after 6M00" should do it but it's definitely not required. TBH, I think Saltley's an absolutely first-rate sim & I wouldn't want to complicate it any more than it is at present. Last edited: 02/01/2012 at 22:33 by alangla Reason: clarify comment on rule. Log in to reply |
| Re: train crew relief activity 04/01/2012 at 21:42 #26819 | |
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daza7789
59 posts |
I agree with the concept of this, and it has been added to the core code wish list, however this is a long list so dont expect it to come soon, as it will require alot of work on geoff/clives part, and then an awful lot more testing. When I first got Saltley near compleated and ready for test, i added a bespoke crew relief arrangment into the sim. this involved the following (much of which has already been discussed): there was a telephone option to call the drivers mess at saltley, to ask is the driver for *x** there. this would result in a tes/no answer. if the answer was no then if the train was early it would wait at landor st (though not nessaceraly till bang on booked time) if the answer was yes then the train would be off as soon as the drivers had swapped over. The reason this does not still exist in Saltley is because it ran off about 2000 lines hand written custom code swinging of multiple 'code callbacks' within the inner workings of SimSig! not only does this significantly increase the risk of something going wrong whick could crash the whole sim, it also increases CPU usage etc as well as causing geoff's blood to boil when he sees how much code custom code is in the sim!! I have proposed the following. a tick box in the TT editor 'crew change' with times shown as 00c00, if a train is booked a crew stop then the relief to call up in advance of the booked time (or late!), the train will not move until the diver has made himself known to the box, so if you run something forward early with no relief you stop the job, there will also need to be a factor maybe driven off the delay sliders, as to the chance the drivers will be early, on time, or late. Ta Daz Log in to reply The following users said thank you: jc92, Stephen Fulcher, alangla |
| Re: train crew relief activity 04/01/2012 at 21:48 #26820 | |
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daza7789
59 posts |
The issue with using TT rules for drivers back workings etc is a tough one. say 6m00 driver works 6v01 back. if 6m00 is 3 hours late then chances are in the real world a spare/alternative driver will be used to take the train. The box will normally know nothing about this, the driver will just ring and say releif for 6v01 ready and waiting. Daz Log in to reply |
| Re: train crew relief activity 04/01/2012 at 23:30 #26826 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2084 posts |
" said:I agree with the concept of this, and it has been added to the core code wish list, however this is a long list so dont expect it to come soon, as it will require alot of work on geoff/clives part, and then an awful lot more testing.I like this idea, and I know that it is the sort of thing that happens in real life at some locations. I remember being in Leamington box the one evening a couple of years ago and the Signalman having an interesting conversation with a driver who was booked to be relieved at Leamington station and go home as to why he was detained inside Fenny Compton DGL - the reason being of course that his relief had not yet made himself known to the Signalman. Log in to reply |
| Re: train crew relief activity 05/01/2012 at 00:00 #26831 | |
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daza7789
59 posts |
lol I have had a similar comversation with a driver myself when at willesden HL before it closed. no relief for his train and Vic was holding him at latchmere. driver phoned me up. I could not possibly repeat the words on this forum but needless to say he was a very upset man!!! Daz Log in to reply |