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| Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 12:18 #27165 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
Exeter v2.227.0, TT = Summer 2006 v2.222. Several times now I've routed trains going from Exeter Central to Honiton, Up the Honiton line as far as Feniton, then when I request a slot to Honiton I get a message saying "Cannot give (slot) due to conflicting route locking". Soon after, a train appears at Honiton heading Down to Exeter, so there's an impasse. So far the only way out has been for me to signal the driver of my train heading towards Honiton to reverse as far back as St James Park along the Down Waterloo line, then reverse again through Exmouth Junction to the Up Waterloo line to let the approaching train from Honiton pass by. The problem here is that I have no warning that there is a train coming the other way until my slot request fails. It's crazy to have to reverse that far back to get out of this impasse. Is there a better solution than this? Thanks. Last edited: 12/01/2012 at 12:19 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 12:44 #27166 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Have you tried just carrying on and seeing what happens? Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 12:53 #27167 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
You don't need to request the slot to send a train to Honiton - you do however need to give the slot to Honiton for a Down train (which is what you're trying to do by clicking on the 'slot' button). You've already managed to put the train on the single line, which is all you can do with it - the next signal (HN2) is Honiton's home signal and he should take it from there. Admittedly it isn't clear from the diagram (the real thing doesn't show any of Honiton's signals), but your Down train at Honiton (approaching or waiting at HN20 signal) is inside the loop there.
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| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 13:24 #27169 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
If the train from Pinhoe is already on the single line towards Honiton, it will continue quite happily to Honiton, at which time you should then be able to accept the slot request from Honiton for the other train to then proceed Honiton-Pinhoe.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 13:43 #27170 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
The one thing that is perplexing me a bit is that I thought I'd inhibited the slot from being requested if the single track was already occupied or a route onto it had been called. Clearly not! The slot is in lieu of the Bells- which would not (I presume) be sent if Honiton already knew of the Up train. I was hoping he's work some of this out for himself- but: As has been said above Honiton is a loop and the slot controls access to the single line at Honiton so the trains will pass (infact the Up falls off just before it gets there). Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 14:05 #27171 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Late Turn wrote: Quote: You don't need to request the slot to send a train to Honiton - you do however need to give the slot to Honiton for a Down train (which is what you're trying to do by clicking on the 'slot' button). You're right, that's what I really meant. More accurately, in this situation my Up train has passed Feniton and has virtually reached the non-TC'd Honiton line. I see the slot button blinking and click it, thinking I'm giving the slot to Honiton, whereas it's really blinking to announce that I'm being asked to accept a train from Honiton, even though there is not yet any sign of its TD. By now, I can't do anything other than reverse my Up train to get it out of the way. I haven't tried checking the TT for the time of arrival of the next train from Honiton. I guess I could do this, but don't really have the time I'm usually rushing around like a headless chook raising barriers that have timed out, freeing trains that have piled up, etc. Miss the single-token ease of the Portbury line of the Bristol sim here in Exeter! Last edited: 12/01/2012 at 14:06 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 14:26 #27172 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:By now, I can't do anything other than reverse my Up train to get it out of the way.No if you read what we've told you you just leave things as they are and the UP train will eventually clear the line and you can give the slot to the Down. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 14:42 #27174 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
This link gives a good summary of the Tokenless Block system as implemented on the Salisbury-Exeter line (via Tisbury, Gillingham, Templecombe, Yeovil Jn, Chard and Axminster,Honiton,Pinhoe). Note that block bells aren't used, but trains are offered/accepted between adjacent signal boxes. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 17:24 #27177 | |
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Zoe
252 posts |
" said:Note that block bells aren't used, but trains are offered/accepted between adjacent signal boxes. Exmouth Junction's panel though doesn't seem to have Offer or Train Arrived buttons. Is this done automatically? Last edited: 12/01/2012 at 19:08 by Zoe Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 17:59 #27179 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
Looking at this photo, Exmouth Jn appears to have a 'train arrived' button (beneath the normal/accept switch), but I can't see an 'offer' button either.
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| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 19:09 #27183 | |
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Zoe
252 posts |
" said:Exmouth Jn appears to have a 'train arrived' button (beneath the normal/accept switch), but I can't see an 'offer' button either. Yes, that does indeed seem to be a Train Arrived button although I wasn't completely convinced at first as I was expecting to find an Offer button next to it. Last edited: 12/01/2012 at 19:09 by Zoe Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 20:08 #27185 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
As it would need to be train arrived complete at Pinhoe, with the signal(wo)man at Exmouth Jn SB, it could be that a countinuous automatic braked train is indicated arrived complete by correct operation of 2 TCs, but an unbraked train would have to report in by phone on arrival at Pinhoe (and is a rare train on this line anyway). from the earlier linked page: ".......subsequent alterations have resulted in a number of locations (both on that line and elsewhere) where a train can leave a single-line section remote from the controlling signal-box. In such cases reliance is placed upon the fact that all trains normally using the section are fully-fitted with continuous automatic brakes and therefore there is a low risk that a broken coupling would leave behind one or more vehicles obstructing the section un-noticed." I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Last edited: 12/01/2012 at 20:10 by AndyG Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 20:14 #27187 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
The interlocking would have no way of knowing whether the arriving train was unfitted or not though, so the 'train arrived' button would have to be operated in either case. The assumption that all trains will be continuously braked is used (uniquely?) on the line though - I don't know if Exmouth Jn has always worked this way, but additions since the initial resignalling mean that both Salisbury PSB and Chard Junction appear to confirm 'train arrived' without seeing a tail lamp. Edit - the second half of your post sneaked in whilst I was composing my reply! Last edited: 12/01/2012 at 20:15 by Late Turn Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Hooverman |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 20:15 #27188 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
Somewhere on the panel is an "acceptance" switch, which is placed into the "normal" state, then the "train arrived" button is operated, when the train has passed clear of track circuit "BE". EDIT Just to add for the purpose of the above you can assume the train is complete with tail lamp once it is clear of track circuit "BE". "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Last edited: 12/01/2012 at 20:16 by headshot119 Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 20:39 #27192 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Right the SA says "For MUs equipped with emergency brake switch Wilton Jn to Exmouth Jn If the EBS switch is operated and the train is formed of more than one unit, immediately before leaving the single line the driver must establish the train is still complete (stopping if necessary) and advise signaller." Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 21:07 #27194 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:More accurately, in this situation my Up train has passed Feniton and has virtually reached the non-TC'd Honiton line. I see the slot button blinking and click it, thinking I'm giving the slot to Honiton, whereas it's really blinking to announce that I'm being asked to accept a train from Honiton, even though there is not yet any sign of its TD. By now, I can't do anything other than reverse my Up train to get it out of the way. I think you might be getting a bit confused- you give a slot to someone so that they can send a train towards your area, and you ask for/recieve a slot to send a train away from your area. In this case, you give a slot to Honiton to give him permission to send a train to Honiton. I've just added this to the Wiki to avoid future confusion:
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 12/01/2012 at 21:26 by Steamer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: alan_s |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 22:46 #27196 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Resolved the "bug" of slot request when an UP route is set/being used. I can see the argument now that there should be an Up slot too - will consider that. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 23:02 #27198 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2080 posts |
Peter, probably too complicated, but what about creating one end (Pinhoe) of the BR(W) tokenless block and automating the Honiton end?
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| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 23:31 #27200 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:Yes, that does indeed seem to be a Train Arrived button although I wasn't completely convinced at first as I was expecting to find an Offer button next to it.I admit it looks like the button says train arrived, however I think it could be the train offer button. My reasons: Many years ago when I worked in a southern region S & T faulting team I attended a block failure at Honiton. We noticed the block attempt to clear following the passage of a down train and asked the Exmouth signaller if he'd pressed the Train Arrived button. I'm 99% certain that the Western S & T chaps told us that Exmouth Junction doesn't have a train arrived button and that the block is automatically reset. (you'd need to put the acceptance switch to normal for the block to reset in any case) Secondly it would be a strange method of operation for the block to automatically offer. Signalling principles should require the block to be at Train Accepted prior to the route being allowed to set although there's many anomalies between Salisbury and Exeter and technically if it all happened when switch 2 was selected to OFF you have arguably fulfilled that principle. I'm also sure I would have noticed if Exmouth always offered the trains only seconds before giving Train in Section which would be the case if it was done on No'2 switch. Secondly what if you wanted to caution a train? It doesn't make sense, there must be an offer button. I'd be interested if anyone has any further information. FF Last edited: 12/01/2012 at 23:31 by Firefly Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 23:33 #27201 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Steamer wrote: Quote: I've just added this to the Wiki to avoid future confusion:Still not entirely clear to me, but I appreciate your effort to clarify this. By "inbound" I guess you mean a train from Honiton to Exeter, it seems. So my understanding of this is: 1) When I want to send a train from Exeter to Honiton, I simply route it to Honiton and ignore the slot button if it flashes. I don't need to click it in order to send a train to Honiton, only when I am ready to accept a train from Honiton. 2) If the slot button begins to flash, I can ignore it until my train is on the non-track-circuited section to Honiton, then I can click it to indicate I am ready to accept their train once mine has reached Honiton. Theirs will be kept on a passing loop. 3) Since Honiton is off my panel, I can't see their passing loop. So, how do I know when my train has reached Honiton? Does a message appear or does it disappear from the Train List? Last edited: 12/01/2012 at 23:48 by maxand Reason: clarified even further Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 23:40 #27203 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:I was going to suggest the same thing however I believe Geoff is trying to get away from bespoke code so I doubt it would be received well. Peter if you decide to replicate the tokenless block I can send you some info on how it operates. Another thing to consider is that by the end of March Pinhoe to Honiton will be track circuit block, and there will be both an offer and accept button installed at Exmouth Junction (The Normal/Accept switch and block indications will be removed) FF Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 12/01/2012 at 23:51 #27204 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:Once Peter's corrected version is released it won't matter because Honiton won't request a slot until the train has reached Honiton. In any case, I just tried it and I was able to give the slot as soon as the train left my last track circuit. So, Ignore the flashing light until the train clears your last track circuit and then press the flashing slot button to allow the train to approach from Honiton Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 13/01/2012 at 00:07 #27205 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks Firefly, at last that's clear.
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| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 13/01/2012 at 14:01 #27226 | |
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Zoe
252 posts |
" said:I'm also sure I would have noticed if Exmouth always offered the trains only seconds before giving Train in Section which would be the case if it was done on No'2 switch. Would have thought the signalman would set the route more than just seconds before the train entered the section. As long as Honiton's switch was at accept and the block was normal then the route would set when switch 2 was operated if indeed there was no offer button. Last edited: 13/01/2012 at 14:06 by Zoe Log in to reply |
| Re: Honiton - conflicting route locking 13/01/2012 at 16:30 #27231 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Possibly. My thoughts were that most signallers wouldn't operate switch 2 until the barriers were down therefore being only a minute or two before entering section. I accept that you could operate it earlier and then just wait for the crossing clear button to be pressed. Log in to reply |
