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New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 19:14 #28594
clive
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Boy, what a thread.

Max, this must have been a lot of work. Thanks for doing it.

There's a lot right here. There's also a lot wrong. Expect a long email when I have the time to write it.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 19:17 #28595
clive
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" said:

Are you correct in saying that the R in 6R02 stands for it telling us that it reverses somewhere along the way and also that the T in 6T41 stands for a through train.
No, he's not.

In this area, R means "Runs between London and Royston" and T means "Runs between London and stations between Ely and King's Lynn inclusive". I know I wrote "reverses at Royston" in the manual, but that was a slip of the keyboard.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 19:25 #28596
clive
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" said:
The problems newbies face are not only that there is a vastly greater amount of information to assimilate than they ever dreamed of, there are illogicalities lurking under the surface of every sim like dead trees under the surface of a lake, waiting to take you out when you inevitably run across them.
That's because there's illogicalities lurking under the surface of every real signalling area.

Quote:

even a trifle dishonest in the way it claimed long freight trains could not fit behind the LOS (LK246) shunt signal, as I disproved.
There's 183 metres between the two signals. Many freight trains are longer than that. All the ones in the supplied timetable are.

Quote:

That set me wondering. If that's the case, why does the sim need it, particularly if its freight trains are fictitious anyway? So far I haven't encountered any other train that uses it,

It's there because there's one there in real life. Full stop.

I guess it's there to allow passenger trains to be shunted between the two platforms using the Down line.

The Summer 2003 timetable doesn't use it, but that doesn't stop people writing other timetables for it.

Quote:
and anyway it's impossible to set a route from K978 to it, so I can't see Up Main trains using it.
Go via K246.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 19:29 #28597
GB
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Quote:
Moral: Again it proves that that, in order to reverse, one must set a route past the reversing signal. Don't try to do the obvious and set a route from K978 or K980 to the LOS (Limit Of Shunt) signal LK246 - you'll either get “No route between selected signals” or “No overlap available”. Still at a LOS (so to speak) to know why they plonked LK246 there in the first place, if it's too short for freight trains? Me too. Let's try again
Its there for operational flexibility...ie run round moves without affecting the up line. For example a freight train sitting in the down loop, loco detaches, route from K253 to K981 and reverse. Then route K978 to K246 to LK246 reverse. Then route from K977 back into the down loop for the loco to reattach. Without the LK246 LOS, locos/trains would always have to reverse behind K245 for london end arrivals and departures which uses both up and down roads.

Moral: Just because you cant see a reason for it doesn't mean there isn't one.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 19:31 #28598
clive
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" said:

There might be no physical junctions, but some form of route indication will be given to a Driver approaching, for example, 977 signal, which has two main routes from it (plus various shunt and calling-on routes which will probably have their own route indication - most likely a small alpha-numeric indicator or set of stencils).
977 has a feather for the route into platform 1, plus a stencil with two indications (I suspect for calling-on into the two platforms, with no indication for the sidings, but I could be wrong).

Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 20:34 by clive
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 19:37 #28599
Sam Tugwell
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maxand said:
That set me wondering. If that's the case, why does the sim need it, particularly if its freight trains are fictitious anyway? So far I haven't encountered any other train that uses it.
That could be said for the vast majority of the signals that enable Bi Directional working in an area. Infact when doing some photography, I pondered to myself, "I wonder how many times E276 has actually cleared (Bi Di signal just before Teignmouth)." Some could take your opinion and question why it is included in the sim if it is so rarely used.

Its almost going back to the whole "Game vs Simulation" topic. It could be more of a game if you removed signals that were rarely used. I like to think that the fact that this signal is there gives the added flexibility that the signaller has in real life.

Sam

"Signalman Exeter"
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 19:43 #28600
clive
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" said:

Quote:
did we ever establish whether it was acceptable (to the Driver) to instead set the route into the loop and expect the train to successfully reverse behind the signal in there as an alternative to 246?

Tom, thanks for suggesting an intriguing alternative for 6R02. However, I can't see how this can work as you describe it. I can't set a route into the loop from K977 to K253 without getting a "waiting for correct route to be set" message, so I need to abandon the timetable.
The timetable says reverse at K246, so the driver is complaining about being sent the wrong way.

Quote:

To make matters worse, although I can set a route for it from K244 to Sherriff's Siding , on reversing into it it runs out of valid track. This is clearly illogical but understandable since the programmer intended the train to be reversed via K246.
There's some magic in there. If a train's timetable says "Sherriff's" and nothing else, it exits the simulation. Otherwise it finds itself sitting at the buffer stop. The real sidings consisted of a headshunt and some storage sidings, and this simulates the choice between using one or the other.

Quote:

If, as Steamer suggests, somebody wanted to write a historical TT for Royston using freight trains, they would have to be mighty short to fit into the down loop. :)
More magic: there are sidings as well as the loop; if the train enters at the loop or has the loop as its only remaining timetabled point, it goes into the sidings and disappears.

There is a convention that a single piece of un-track-circuited track on the diagram means there's only one track (as in the Up Siding) while multiple pieces or branches indicates there are several tracks and trains can leave and enter the simulation here.

Quote:
The catch-22 is that (unlike another sim I've named before) we are not privy to block lengths, not even the length of the Down Loop,
193 metres for the throut track.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that if a signaller was faced with this situation in his local area he would be able to dig out a chart of block lengths so could reliably park a long train on a loop.
Probably he'd have a sticky note telling him, or would just be expected to know.

Quote:

What does he know or care about Route Tables? The only one I've seen provided so far is Royston's, and even that's inaccurate as K986 is left out of the first column, so there's no mention of the second "long route" (which was inaccurately described in the manual - I've corrected it). He shouldn't have to resort to them - that's programmers' stuff.
Those tables aren't mine; I don't know where they came from.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 19:44 #28601
Peter Bennet
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" said:

I still don't understand your explanation of NX panels. Are you referring to ARS here?
Are these Entrance and Exit buttons terms used in SimSig, or are they the product of a different manufacturer?
See attached close-up of Cowlairs North Jn.




To set the route CE308 to CC303 you press the button at 308 as the entrance, then the button at CE306 as the exit and the route is set. Then press CE306 again as the entrance and CC303 as the exit- second route set. In this case you will see that the button at CE306 is illuminated as is the button just above. That is the panel's "A" button so route CE306 to CC303 is set to auto working. The auto working CE308 to CE306 is not set.

Note also the collar on CE608 (harking back to another discussion).

Peter

Not sure why pngs don't work- they are authorised
Ah over-sized

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Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 21:14 by Peter Bennet
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 19:47 #28602
clive
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" said:
However, if what you said is absolutely true, why didn't Royston's programmer add a bit of code to (a) prevent a train from reversing past the LOS, and (b) popping up a stern message to that effect? The fact that I was actually able to do it makes it SimSig's fault, not mine.
Wrong.

It's physically possible to run a train Up the Down line. It's physically possible for a signaller to tell a driver to pass the LOS. There are circumstances (pilotman working) where that would be what happens. So the simulation allows these things to happen.

It so happens that usually both the signaller and driver would be in deep trouble for doing this. But that's not what SimSig is about; you're supposed to obey the rulebook and, in general, it doesn't police it.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 19:50 #28603
clive
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" said:
On the subject of what can be done and what should not be done, the overwhelming impression I got from SimSig's forum and Wiki when I sat down to write this tutorial was that the only thing that matters to the software is that a train passes its waypoints (is there a railway-specific term for this?) assigned to it in its TT, in the correct order. How[/i] it gets to these waypoints is up to the signaller.Quote:


That, roughly, is how the train simulation module works, yes.

[quote]Therefore the newbie should not feel he is doing anything wrong by signalling the driver to carry out manoeuvres even as unorthodox as reverse shunting past a LOS. It might not be the [i]recommended
way, but it gets him home and boosts his confidence!
See previous message: there's a line between "possible" and "allowed" and we don't usually police the gap.

[quote]SimSig is proud of its claim to be as authentic as possible, yet still permits things like this to happen. You can't have it both ways
Yes I can! It's because that's authentic.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 19:55 #28604
clive
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" said:

I hadn't realized until I saw it written down here that a British "siding", unlike an American one, doesn't allow trains out the far end.
I thought that when I was a child, but it's not true. A siding is a place to put trains aside. Most sidings in the UK are single-ended because of a historical morbid fear of facing points. Tracks to one side that can be entered and then left further along are usually used for allowing trains to overtake rather than to store them, so they're loops. But you can have a double-ended siding; you'll see the Down Through Siding on SimSig Euston, for example.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 19:58 #28605
clive
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It might seem like unnecessary pandering but I would tend to resent being referred to as a signalman. I know some heritage railways will only use 'signalman' because that's the historically-accurate job title, but that's because - historically - women didn't work on the railways.
Actually, it's not historically accurate. There were signalwomen on the railways at least as far back as World War 2, and that was their job title.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 20:02 #28608
clive
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" said:

On the real Kings Cross Panel the lines will be drawn exactly as on SimSig.
Not quite: it's the other way up!

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 20:02 #28609
jc92
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" said:
" said:
It might seem like unnecessary pandering but I would tend to resent being referred to as a signalman. I know some heritage railways will only use 'signalman' because that's the historically-accurate job title, but that's because - historically - women didn't work on the railways.
Actually, it's not historically accurate. There were signalwomen on the railways at least as far back as World War 2, and that was their job title.
i know of at least two women on the south yorkshire joint who worked as career signalman way into the 70's not sure how they were referred to though.

i do know that a signaller is in the navy and a signal[person] is on the railway though

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 20:20 #28613
clive
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" said:
There are 3 basic interfaces for signal route setting.

1 levers
2 By Operating a switch (One Switch Control)
3 Entrance Exit Panels (NX)
Very true. But there were also some weird combinations.

Liverpool Street had something that involved turning a knob at the signal to select the destination.

Glasgow Central (not the one that just closed, but the one before that) was weird. There was so many routes between signals in the station throat that the sequence was something like press entrance button, press exit button, turn a big wheel until a route lit up that you liked - this worked through the possible routes in order of preference, only lighting those that were available - then press a third button to lock in the route.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 20:30 #28614
clive
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" said:

Looking at Google Earth, the Down Loop looks to be about 200m in length, so quite short. The sidings that remain there now are equally short though, so unless these sidings have been shortened in recent years - perhaps it's the virtual train that's too long in Simsig?
Things have changed. The Down Sidings extended towards Orchard Road - Barnack Grove and the other nearby roads weren't there. They weren't hundreds of metres long, but the sim assumes that longer trains were shunted in in pieces (and does that for you). When I get round to a proper rewrite rather than a refresh, I'll put a maximum on the length of train accepted into the sidings.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 20:41 #28616
Firefly
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Quote:
Are you back working on the Railways then?
I do both Flying is my main job, signal testing in my spare time. (it pays better than SimSig testing!)

K

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 21:01 #28619
Jan
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" said:
" said:

On the real Kings Cross Panel the lines will be drawn exactly as on SimSig.
Not quite: it's the other way up!

Hm, I thought the original release of King's Cross was the wrong way round compared to the panel, and in a subsequent release, the whole area was flipped around, so it is now matching the panel. Or are you referring to something else?

Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 21:22 #28622
Josie
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" said:
" said:
It might seem like unnecessary pandering but I would tend to resent being referred to as a signalman. I know some heritage railways will only use 'signalman' because that's the historically-accurate job title, but that's because - historically - women didn't work on the railways.
Actually, it's not historically accurate. There were signalwomen on the railways at least as far back as World War 2, and that was their job title.
I stand (sit) corrected. Thank you.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 21:26 #28623
JamesN
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" said:
" said:
" said:

On the real Kings Cross Panel the lines will be drawn exactly as on SimSig.
Not quite: it's the other way up!

Hm, I thought the original release of King's Cross was the wrong way round compared to the panel, and in a subsequent release, the whole area was flipped around, so it is now matching the panel. Or are you referring to something else?
While Kings Cross has been corrected upon refresh, Royston remains the wrong way round

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 21:34 #28624
Noisynoel
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" said:
" said:

Quote:
did we ever establish whether it was acceptable (to the Driver) to instead set the route into the loop and expect the train to successfully reverse behind the signal in there as an alternative to 246?

Tom, thanks for suggesting an intriguing alternative for 6R02. However, I can't see how this can work as you describe it. I can't set a route into the loop from K977 to K253 without getting a "waiting for correct route to be set" message, so I need to abandon the timetable.
The timetable says reverse at K246, so the driver is complaining about being sent the wrong way.

Quote:

To make matters worse, although I can set a route for it from K244 to Sherriff's Siding , on reversing into it it runs out of valid track. This is clearly illogical but understandable since the programmer intended the train to be reversed via K246.
There's some magic in there. If a train's timetable says "Sherriff's" and nothing else, it exits the simulation. Otherwise it finds itself sitting at the buffer stop. The real sidings consisted of a headshunt and some storage sidings, and this simulates the choice between using one or the other.
Also a driver will not query a route from a shunt signal in real life as it would vary rarely indicate which route is set from the signal, the driver would take the route, but observe the lie of the points.


Quote:
The catch-22 is that (unlike another sim I've named before) we are not privy to block lengths, not even the length of the Down Loop,[/quote

Hmmm, just like real life then....

[quote]I'm pretty sure that if a signaller was faced with this situation in his local area he would be able to dig out a chart of block lengths so could reliably park a long train on a loop.
He would not recess a freight train unless it was booked to do so, therefore would be within the length limit of the siding, or instructed to do so by Control, who would have checked the length of the train beforehand.

Noisynoel
Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 21:35 by Noisynoel
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 21:49 #28626
Steamer
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Clive said:
Those tables aren't mine; I don't know where they came from.
I've written those. I thought the ones you wrote for the Euston manual were a good idea, so I'm in the process of writing them for all Simulations that have F11 in them. I'll upload a corrected version of the Royston Tables tommorrow.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 22:00 #28628
ralphjwchadkirk
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" said:

He would not recess a freight train unless it was booked to do so, therefore would be within the length limit of the siding, or instructed to do so by Control, who would have checked the length of the train beforehand.

No siggy I know would trust the planners or control to get their SLUs right. Too many times a train has been looped arse-end-out.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 22:46 #28629
clive
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" said:

I've written those. I thought the ones you wrote for the Euston manual were a good idea, so I'm in the process of writing them for all Simulations that have F11 in them. I'll upload a corrected version of the Royston Tables tommorrow.
Ah, fine. Note that the Euston ones only cover the complex area of the throat, not the rest of the layout.

When you update the Royston ones, please note that the 1xx signals should have a CA prefix (which they will on next refresh), not a C prefix.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 22:48 #28630
clive
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[quote="JamesN" post=28623While Kings Cross has been corrected upon refresh, Royston remains the wrong way round[/quote]

It may stay that way because it's an extract from the Cambridge simulation. Or it may get flipped; I haven't decided yet.

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