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| Reversing empty trains at Euston 07/02/2012 at 14:12 #29006 | |
sqdavid
4 posts |
Hi Everyone, I`m about half way through a 1974 timetable for Euston, however I have a query on the routing of Empty Stock trains from the Down shed to the Backing out Roads, my query applies to prototypical 11/12 coach+ loco, about 235 Meters long, as shorter trains and light engine movements work fine. These longer trains (Around 18 in total during a 24hr period) needed to reverse before propelling back towards Euston. Does anybody know where exactly on the Layout the trains actually stopped before setting back? I have tried 3 different methods with various degrees of success, as follows, Method 1 Setting a route from The Down shed into the shunt necks is fine but they are too short for a normal reversal to take place, however when the train arrives in shunt neck 1( The longer of the 2 with FX applied in the timetable) the Rear of the train is straddling circuit 68, the driver phones up asking permission to proceed and after manually setting the double slip and clearing signal 41, authorisation is given and the train sets back into Backing out road 4. This causes a track circuit bleed as the train crosses the points and the TD is lost has to be reset at signal 32. Also the route from signal 68 is still set after the train leaves the shunt neck and this route needs to be cleared. Method 2 Setting a route from the Down shed, clearing signals 66-68-88 and then stopping the train at the shunt limit on the up engine line, again this leaves the rear of the train straddling track circuit 115 and standing over the points. In this case there is no call from the driver and when signal 81 is cleared and a route is set into the backing out roads the train proceeds normally. Again the TD needs to be reset and the route originally set from signal 88 Needs to be cleared. Method 3 This proved the most successful and involves setting a route from the down shed, clearing signals 66-68-88 and then stopping the train at signal 105 on the Down empty carriage line. With FX applied in the timetable the train Comes to a halt inside signal 93 where a route can be set to return it to Euston as normal. Methods 1 and 2 work but it would be theoretically possible to route another train directly into the path of the train reversing, a major safety issue and Method 3 involves a lengthy run up to Camden blocking Down empty train And light engine movements in the process. Any comments on the actual procedure used at Euston in the 1970s would be welcome. Regards Dave Log in to reply |
| Re: Reversing empty trains at Euston 07/02/2012 at 19:14 #29032 | |
lazzer
636 posts |
I take it you mean the 1977 TT, unless there's a secret 1974 TT I haven't heard of yet ... I just loaded it up and checked the length of every train that enters at the Down Carriage Shed - I can't find any that are over 200m in length. I'm not sure where you're getting 235m from. Also, the first of these trains out of the shed (5F01 at 00:11) fits nicely into Shunt Neck 2, and in behind signal 71 with no problem. Are we talking about the same thing here? Do you have specific headcodes of trains that are causing you trouble? Log in to reply |
| Re: Reversing empty trains at Euston 07/02/2012 at 19:16 #29033 | |
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Josie
310 posts |
" said:Are we talking about the same thing here? Do you have specific headcodes of trains that are causing you trouble?I suspect not! Looks to me like Dave is writing a 1974 timetable... Log in to reply |
| Re: Reversing empty trains at Euston 07/02/2012 at 19:21 #29034 | |
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sqdavid
4 posts |
Thanks for the reply and checking Its a new timetable for 1974 that i'm writing. Dave Log in to reply |
| Re: Reversing empty trains at Euston 07/02/2012 at 19:29 #29035 | |
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lazzer
636 posts |
In that case your trains are too long. 
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| Re: Reversing empty trains at Euston 07/02/2012 at 22:47 #29041 | |
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benstafford
88 posts |
Surely a 12 coach train plus loco would be 255 to 260 metres long, and looking at the photos of the time this would not have been an uncommon length.
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| Re: Reversing empty trains at Euston 07/02/2012 at 23:55 #29043 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
I think you will find that they came out of Camden Carriage Sidings as well as arriving from Willesden Depot. I may be wrong! Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply |
| Re: Reversing empty trains at Euston 14/02/2012 at 09:33 #29418 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:Surely a 12 coach train plus loco would be 255 to 260 metres long, and looking at the photos of the time this would not have been an uncommon length.I believe that the older coaches were shorter, so you're talking perhaps 235 to 240 metres. Log in to reply |
| Re: Reversing empty trains at Euston 14/02/2012 at 10:08 #29419 | |
postal
5265 posts |
" said:" said:In 1974, the bulk of the stock would have been Mk2 coaches (in round numbers each is 20m long as opposed to the Mk3 which is 23m long). With one of the standard electric locos (say 18m) that would give a train length of 258m for a loco + 12. The Mk3 was introduced in 1975 (firstly for the WCML electrification extension to Glasgow and then for the HSTs).Surely a 12 coach train plus loco would be 255 to 260 metres long, and looking at the photos of the time this would not have been an uncommon length.I believe that the older coaches were shorter, so you're talking perhaps 235 to 240 metres. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Re: Reversing empty trains at Euston 14/02/2012 at 10:55 #29423 | |
58050
2659 posts |
Mk.1 coaches are slightly shorter than Mk.2s. Mk.1s are 19.55m & BGs are 17.27m. All Mk.2s whether they are Mk.2a, Mk.2b, Mk.2c, Mk.2d, Mk.2e or Mk.2f they are all 20m. There is a slight difference between Mk.3 loco hauled stock & Mk.3 HST vehicles. Mk.3s used on the WCML are a length of 22.73m whilst HST Mk.3s are 23m as Postal states. The AC locos of the period (with the exception of Cl.90s) are all different lengths surprisingly:- Cl.81 = 17.12m Cl.82 = 16.97m Cl.83 = 15.90m Cl.84 = 16.21m Cl.85 = 17.12m Cl.86 = 17.83m Cl.87 = 17.83m Cl.90 = 18.74m Therefore you can easily work out the length of the trains by adding up the various lengths & then either round up or down to the nearest whole number. Therefore a train comprising of 11 x Mk.2s + 1 X Mk.1 buffet + loco would be in the region of 257m. Pretty much a standard length train of the period. Last edited: 14/02/2012 at 10:56 by 58050 Log in to reply |
| Re: Reversing empty trains at Euston 14/02/2012 at 12:12 #29428 | |
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sqdavid
4 posts |
Thanks everybody for the replies and detail on Coach and Loco lengths, Regrading train lengths I have done a bit more research and the basic summer daytime WCML passenger service to Euston in 1974 required 60 sets of coaching stock to provide the timetable Monday to Thursday. If you exclude the Manchester Pullman/Northampton Peak hour/Glasgow summer dated and the 0010 service to Wolverhampton which were all 8/9 coach, the remaining trains were all 11/12 coach except 4 of the 11 sets used on the Euston-Birmingham/Wolves route which were 13 coach. I think the best solution is to use a standard Loco/Coach length of 18m and multiples therof in my timetable which will ensure that a 12 coach train+Loco(234m) will be able to use the Downside shed (240m) and 13 coach trains (252m) used on Euston-Birmingham/Wolves trains can use Plateforms 5/6 (270m) without the need for re-platforming. Regards Dave Log in to reply |