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| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 00:09 #2984 | |
UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
This text is hidden because you are not logged in. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 00:09 #15516 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
This text is hidden because you are not logged in. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 06:07 #15517 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
I'm a bit wary of getting embroiled in Politics on this forum (though I do on others!) - I've not really had a strong view either way but on balance I've decided to vote No. It seems a rather fiddly system and costly system that either "more or less produces the same result" according to one argument (in which case why bother) or produces more wild swings one way or the other (in which case I think that's bad for democracy). In my view the best government is one with a small majority (of whatever party) but a majority none the less. I certainly have a strong view on full PR which I don't like at all. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 07:00 #15518 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Quote:It seems a rather fiddly system and costly system that either "more or less produces the same result" according to one argument (in which case why bother) or produces more wild swings one way or the other (in which case I think that's bad for democracy).If that's your reason, please reconsider. Firstly, "costly" is a lie spread by the "no" campaign. They claim huge costs for AV but, when you look into it, they're actually claiming two things. Firstly, the cost of the referendum itself. Even if their numbers are correct (and I doubt it; I suspect they've included the costs of the council elections going on at the same time), that's a cost of deciding which system to use - it could equally be charged to FPTP. Secondly, they're claiming that voting machines would be required. That is out and out false. AV is used in Australia without voting machines. It's used in Scotland without voting machines. Voting machines are not needed. The counters at elections get paid a fixed fee irrespective of how long the count goes on. So where's the cost? Secondly, it neither produces the same result nor wild swings. What actually happens is that: * In places where one party has a clear majority, it produces the same result. * In places where there's a fairly even split between several candidates, it ensures that a candidate acceptable to most people gets elected. The major thing it changes is that you no longer get constituencies where a candidate gets elected even though 60% or 70% of the electors hate him or her. In other words, it increases the legitimacy of MPs and makes people feel that it's worth taking part. Isn't that a good thing? Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 07:36 #15520 | |
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Lordmwa
148 posts |
Thank you clive I am really very disappointed by the No campaign it is just the sort of underhanded (largely lying) politics that AV is pat of the solution to remove It is a shame but No is almost certainly going to win because the tories have scared the majority of the population. If No is the answer today then there will be no more referendums on political change within our lifetimes, if we get this it is either liked or fairly quickly we have another referendum to either change back or go to some other better system. The cost argument is well out of proportion. No are touting £250 million which is much higher than it is likely to be, but even this amount is tiny compared to the national budget. In my opinion you cant put a price on democracy. An examples of last election results based on some preference polls: Hull north - http://av.yabari.com/Hull_North Changed but it was very close before and after Overall Lib dems would be 32 seats better off (allowing more choice of coalition and so a better, fairer one) but this is only because they were very close to winning in a lot of areas. In very close labour/tory seats it didnt allow the lib dems to win. Basically if it was between lab and lib dem the tory second choice went to lib dem and vice versa Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 08:05 #15521 | |
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Haraubrad
103 posts |
Why change somrthing that works for something that is more complicated. We've seen enough of this on the railway over the years. Aubrey Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 08:40 #15523 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
In my view both side have been equally bad at presenting their case and disingenuous in their arguments. I also find it difficult to follow the argument that if it had been done this way or that last time the result would have been this or that. It's simply not possible to say that because we don't know how people would have voted, not only in terms of second preferences (never asked) but indeed in terms of first preference as that may have been different too. I think the truth is that no system is prefect and that the degree of perceived perfection is somewhat coloured by your view of the actual outcome. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 09:54 #15525 | |
postal
5265 posts |
Totally inappropriate topic for the SimSig Forum. If people want to waste their time starting topics like this or joining in the "debate" (as in re-statement of entrenched positions) then please do it in a place where it has some relevance and not on a signalling simulation forum. If I had my way, the mods would delete (or at worst, lock) this thread. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 10:03 #15526 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
I've since moved it to "non-railway" topic. As indicated I have my doubts about getting embroiled in politics but as long as it remains good natured and level headed it should be OK. We have had controvertial topics discussed in the past. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 10:19 #15527 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
postal said:Totally inappropriate topic for the SimSig Forum. Peter Bennet said: I've since moved it to "non-railway" topic.I don't know where this thread started but where it is currently is called "Open Mic" for a good reason. If you don't want to discuss it, why post? SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 12:49 #15531 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Quote:Why change somrthing that works for something that is more complicated.Because, many of us think, it doesn't work. A few years ago a BNP candidate got elected to a council with under 30% of the vote, even though it was clear that perhaps 60%, if not 70%, of those voting hated the idea. I don't consider that "working". Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 13:36 #15533 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Had hoped this would not get Party Political. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 14:12 #15534 | |
andyb0607
260 posts |
A cut down version of AV is used for the London Mayoral elections. This gives voters a first and second preference vote. The end result was something like a 51/49% split between Boris Johnson and Ken Livingstone. It should still be said that the turn out was only 45% meaning that London's elected Mayor only got about 23% of London on his side. Meaning that even using an alternative to the FPTP system 55% of London still showed apathy towards the political system and didn't bother to cast their vote(s). I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who don't bother to vote because their party of choice doesn't have a hope in hell of winning in their constituency. However, if they did vote then the results could be completely different. For any ballot to be fair we need to some how encourage more people to vote. Maybe we should include a "none of the above" abstention vote and make people go out and vote. If the abstentions go above 50% then the ballot is declared void. Whether AV or FPTP are the right systems to acheive this I'm still undecided. I will have to make my mind up though as I always use my vote. More reading between now and 10PM I suppose! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 15:23 #15535 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
There is a thought that although AV isn't the best voting system, a No vote would end all discussion on any other type of voting system. I'm waiting for Single Transferrable Voting, personally, but I'll be lucky to see that in my lifetime.
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| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 15:54 #15536 | |
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Javelin395
272 posts |
I think Clive made some really good points. Pity the politicians can't follow his lead. That is why I pretty much gave up voting some years ago. Fed up with all the childish bickering and blaming one-another. I'm more interested in what they are going to do to put things right rather than who was at fault for the problem in the first place !! These days I register my protest by writing L-I-A-R-S across the boxes. That said I voted no today because one-person one-vote treats everyone the same. In AV some people effectively get multiple votes which I think is unfair. Also, I don't for one minute think the AV system would have prevented the recent expenses scandal as those in the yes camp tried to imply. Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 17:29 #15543 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
I did read somewhere about an idea that second and third preferences and so on should be weighted. I.e. 1st = 1 vote, 2nd = 1/2 vote, 3rd = 1/3 vote and so on which did make some kind of sense. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 19:04 #15549 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Hmm just got back from polling and had three ballot papers all of which were binary so AV would have been pointless. Having said binary they were multi-vote papers as in choose 7 from 9 (Town) and 2 from 4 (district) but only two parties represented within the lists. Not quite sure how that would convert if there had been more choices 7 first preferences, 7 second and so on.... Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 05/05/2011 at 20:02 #15554 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
Is it democracy if someone can be elected even though more that 50% of the electorate haven't voted for them (and thus don't want them)? That's what happens under FPTP. Whilst AV isn't the best, it's a good step in the direction of PR. Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 06/05/2011 at 06:11 #15569 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Quote:In AV some people effectively get multiple votes which I think is unfair.That's another lie/misrepresentation from the "no" people. Consider the system that some organizations and political parties use to elect their leader. Suppose there are 5 candidates. They hold an election and count the votes. If somebody gets 50%, they win. If nobody reaches 50%, the lowest candidate is eliminated and they hold a second election with the 4 candidates. Again, if somebody gets 50%, they win. If nobody does, the lowest candidate is eliminated and they hold a third election with the 3 candidates. If somebody gets 50%, they win. If nobody does, the lowest of the three is eliminated and they hold a fourth and final election with the 2 people left. Does anyone "effectively get multiple votes" with this system? Of course not. Everyone gets the same number of votes - 1 per election. Now imagine that the organization introduces a rule:
(Never mind how they enforce that rule for the moment.) Have the people who voted for the loser in the first round suddenly got an extra vote in the second round? Of course not. But now we've got that rule, they can speed things up. Instead of having to produce up to 4 ballot papers, and having to wait after each count to know who's standing, they could use a different ballot paper. Something like this:
Everyone still only gets one vote, right? So let's turn the ballot round. Instead of writing in 4 names, lets just list the names and say:
Exactly the same rule still applies, right? Just telling people to write numbers against names instead of names against numbers. Still everyone gets only one vote, right? Oh, look. We have an AV ballot. It's AV, and everyone gets exactly one vote. AV is just like "Big Brother" or "Dancing on Ice" - you vote one person off at a time - except that you can't change who you vote for while they're still in the game. Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 06/05/2011 at 07:36 #15570 | |
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Lordmwa
148 posts |
Av has almost certainly lost Lib dems have been punished [...deleted...] Tories have won through unscathed. Bad bad night for british politics. People are too easily won over be scaremongering [Edited by GM - please don't make personal accusations that you cannot prove] Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 06/05/2011 at 08:24 #15575 | |
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GoochyB
222 posts |
The poll really asked the wrong question - should we replace our far from perfect voting system with this alternative that we are offering you which is also far, but maybe not quite as far, from perfect. It may have been more interesting if it had said - are you happy with our current voting system, or should we try to have a sensible debate along non-partisan lines about how we can reform the system so that people can be represented fairly and feel that their vote is important.
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| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 06/05/2011 at 08:39 #15579 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Lordmwa said:Lets not kid ourselves that one side was somehow whiter than white and the other not. Having been involved in electioneering myself, in the past, every side does it and always will- it's the nature of the beast. I seem to recall one party's "manual" on the subject was leaked a few years ago. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 06/05/2011 at 09:41 #15580 | |
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Lordmwa
148 posts |
I agree with you peter but i strongly believe it shouldnt be like this. We should be able to trust our politicians and they should do things for the good of the country not just for the good of themselves Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 06/05/2011 at 09:43 #15581 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
What annoyed me is that we were only offered FPTP or AV; a bit like having to choose between standing squeezed nose-to-armpit on the Central Line in a rough peak & not being able to get on a train at all. What I'd really have liked to see was an option for full PR - preferably STV in multi-member constituencies (I hate the idea of party lists, I want to see the power of the whips & the party machines reduced not enhanced). Even that - rather more complex - system doesn't need machines. I recall Young *** conferences I used to attend where the executive (or whatever we called it) was elected by STV; there were no such things as voting machines in those days (not even PCs - I know some of you will find that hard to believe!) and even if there had been we certainly couldn't have afforded them, but the votes were counted and posts filled in quite a reasonable time without any difficulty that I was aware of. Quite why such a feat is beyond our supposed bastion of democracy is rather beyond me. As it is, I suspect the voting machine issue is a red herring anyway - there have already been experiments with such technology and I suspect it's only a matter of time before we have them anyway. Thanks to Clive for debunking the "get more than one vote" myth. Writing on the day after, I fear the vote is indeed lost (there's been surprisingly little comment in the media). I only hope the turnout was so low that the argument so often used by vested interests against (usually) industrial action - that so few of the total electorate supported it - can be turned back on them. I know it should never have been a party political matter but I was struck that most "No" campaing funding seems to have come from donors to one of our major political parties and it seems to me that that fact alone makes a party slant inevitable. Log in to reply |
| Alternative Vote (AV) poll 06/05/2011 at 10:56 #15585 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Annoyingly, I've just come across the perfect analogy to explain the benefits of AV. Where would you like the next SimSig meet to be?
FPTP gets you a beer-less meet. Log in to reply |