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| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 27/11/2009 at 17:52 #313 | |
Hari Seldon
51 posts |
Which is the difference among the following instuctions? * Authorise train to pass signal at danger * Tell driver to examine the line * Tell driver to examine the line and pass signal at danger Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 27/11/2009 at 17:52 #4634 | |
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Hari Seldon
51 posts |
Which is the difference among the following instuctions? * Authorise train to pass signal at danger * Tell driver to examine the line * Tell driver to examine the line and pass signal at danger Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 27/11/2009 at 18:03 #4635 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
Hari Seldon said:Which is the difference among the following instuctions?Authorise to pass signal at danger: used when it is known that the line is clear for the movement to take place (so usually if all track circuits are clear but there is a failure somewhere further downstream in the circuitry). Examine the line: used when the line to be examined is a different line to the one the train is running on. So if there is a track circuit failure on the up line it is possible to put a down line signal to danger manually and ask a down train to examine the up line - in effect the driver examines all lines and will report if all is clear. Examine line and pass signal at danger: used if the line to be examined is the line the train is running on. Hope that helps. Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 27/11/2009 at 18:39 #4636 | |
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Hari Seldon
51 posts |
Yes, thanks. I was not able to understand when I should use "Tell driver to examine the line" without "and pass signal at danger". Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 27/11/2009 at 23:58 #4639 | |
DazrahT
47 posts |
The current rules in force dictate that if you are in a position to clear the signal protecting the affected portion of line that you wish to examine (as this may not be for a Track Circuit Failure), then you clear the signal, obviously for a track circuit failure ahead of the protecting signal you won't be able to do this, which is where "Tell driver to examine line and pass signal at danger" comes in, which incidentally is worded incorrect in SimSig, as it really should read "Pass the signal at Danger and then examine the line" In response to kbarber regarding his reply regarding the above [examining from opposite], I don't think using the "Examine the line" option allows you to specify within SimSig which line you want to examine. When the command "Examine the line" is given in SimSig, the train will only examine the line he is travelling on, and not the opposite. Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 28/11/2009 at 00:18 #4640 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Just to add what I can't see mentioned is that the train you ask to examine the line will travel upto the next signal at around 20mph (it should fluctuate between 19mph and 21mph) before the driver stops at the next signal to call you back with a report. Of course this may be different if the line speed is say 15mph, where the driver ought to travel at that speed instead (again, he may travel at between 14mph and 16mph).
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 28/11/2009 at 00:24 #4641 | |
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DazrahT
47 posts |
When examining the line in reality the driver would be informed to examine at no more than 20mph (unless the line speed is lower obviously) or 10mph when passing through a tunnel, and be told to be prepared to stop short of any obstruction. For anybody who's interested, here are the rules concerned http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Book/Rule%20Book%20Modules/TS%20-%20Train%20Signalling/GERT8000-TS1%20Iss%205.pdf Regulation 20 is what you need to be reading. Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 01/12/2009 at 14:04 #4727 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
There is not much interaction between these commands and SimSig. For example: There is no penalty for 'PSAD' with a TC failure ahead that you have not examined. You are told it is a TC failure straight off. In real life would you need to find out if it was a TC failure or divided train / occupation clip etc by examining the line with a train 'PSAD+EX' before sending any as 'PSAD' ? Implementing this would be a change to how it works at present, needing new states of 'unexamined failure (penalise PSAD)' and 'examined failure (PSAD OK)'. Equally if a user crossing is left down for a long time (sim bug or by design ?) then sending a train through as PSAD+EX should clear the crossing for you. Certainly it should not get you a penalty and an 'Oi mind my chickens!' Bill Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 01/12/2009 at 18:38 #4733 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
This draft page for the WIKI may help explain things: http://www.SimSig.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=usertrack:agstore:tcf I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 12/12/2009 at 11:53 #5020 | |
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Vitesse
31 posts |
Quote:When examining the line in reality the driver would be informed to examine at no more than 20mph (unless the line speed is lower obviously) or 10mph when passing through a tunnel, and be told to be prepared to stop short of any obstruction. Strange thing is when being asked in real-life to examine the line Never been advised of a speed to examine at, just been given the usual "proceed with caution prepared to stop short of any obstruction". Regardless of wether it was examining the OLE, possible track defect, track circuit showing occupied etc. The only time I have been advised of a speed was by Victoria box and that was 5mph from their last signal to wembley mainline's first signal due to a reported track defect. Thats a long way at 5mph lol Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 12/12/2009 at 14:03 #5024 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
A signaller will not dictate what speed to do as they do not know line speeds without looking in the sectional appendix. The only exception would be when the p-way impose a speed owing to a defect, in which case they are advised of the speed & pass it on to the driver.
Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 13/12/2009 at 15:03 #5031 | |
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Vitesse
31 posts |
True, however there are certain cercumstances where you normally expect to be advised of a speed, such as when examining the OLE. Where on two occasions once I was told "examine the OLE one the opposite line between station X and junction Y not exceeding 20mph" and on another occasion just get examine the OLE between X and Y. I think a lot of it depends on the signaller on the day as to how they go about it. Got to say that the signallers on the NLL panel at Liv St are good on comms, however its a shame its a bit lax at the other far end of the route at times 
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| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 14/12/2009 at 17:09 #5052 | |
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jimgos2005
129 posts |
This I believe is also caleed T.S.R (TEMPORARY SPEED RESTRICTION) also theres a E.S.R (EMERGENCY SPEED RESTRICTION) If these are still used today I also believe that an esr will be used sometimes where a bridge has been struck for atrain to pass over/on the bridge or for some similar reason. Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 14/12/2009 at 17:13 #5053 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
TSRs are planned, and put in the WON or PON, I can't remember which. ESRs are not published in either, as they are an urgent measure, but is not to do with the subject of the topic.
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| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 14/12/2009 at 17:15 #5054 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
Noisynoel said:A signaller will not dictate what speed to do as they do not know line speeds without looking in the sectional appendix. The only exception would be when the p-way impose a speed owing to a defect, in which case they are advised of the speed & pass it on to the driver.General Signalling Regulation 20.3.2 disagrees with you: Quote: You must instruct the driver that when the signal is cleared or you Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 14/12/2009 at 17:33 #5055 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
ok, so I missed 2 exceptions, however, my original statement is still correct, which the GSR agrees with here.. Quote:
Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 14/12/2009 at 19:33 #5060 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
Not two exceptions to a signaller. It could cost him his job.
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| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 14/12/2009 at 23:04 #5068 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
My point was that except in certain circumstances i.e those listed, the signaller does not denote a speed to the driver, so the GSI did not actually disagree with what I had stated. i like many, I do not have to put this knowledge into practice everyday.. I like to think the signallers know what they are doing, and also 1 of those exceptions does not apply on Kent as the tiny bit of OHLE we have (At Ashford) is dealt with by the CTRL, not us.
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| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 15/12/2009 at 10:02 #5074 | |
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Vitesse
31 posts |
Just to make sure you know, I wasnt having a dig at anyone im my posts, just saying on a the few occasions I should have been advised a speed I wasnt once or twice. Like I said though, a lot depends on the signaller at the time I'd expect and we are expected to know what speed we should'nt be exceeding anyway.
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| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 20/12/2009 at 18:01 #5177 | |
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button_pusher
56 posts |
As a side, on SimSig when you've asked the driver to PSAD and EX, do you ever get a ready other than no obstruction found? Also, if the issue is within a tunnel, and travelling at 10mph, the driver discovers and broken rail, does NRN/C2S work in a tunnel or would movements be stopped on the opposite line to allow the driver to walk forwards/back towards to nearest SPT to phone it in? b2 Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 20/12/2009 at 18:17 #5179 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
button_pusher, Regarding the second question you ask, I seem to recall that someone else said that if the issue is within a tunnel then all other movements within the tunnel would be stopped. If NRN/C2S didn't work then the driver would use another method of contacting the signaller, be that via mobile telephone (believe it or not, I have received a mobile phone signal inside some tunnels on the ECML) or the nearest appropriate telephone. I do believe that every tunnel would have a protecting signal at it's entrance for each line through it so hopefully the tunnel isn't too long...otherwise the driver better get walking... Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 20/12/2009 at 22:17 #5185 | |
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button_pusher
56 posts |
Cheers for that. I've had a signal in some of the shorter tunnels but Summit and Sough tunnels were slight deadspots!
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| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 20/12/2009 at 22:20 #5186 | |
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Vitesse
31 posts |
suprisingly on one of our routes, get better CSR and NRN reception inside the tunnels than outside them
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| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 21/12/2009 at 13:40 #5207 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
Vitesse said:suprisingly on one of our routes, get better CSR and NRN reception inside the tunnels than outside themI would hazard a guess that there is some booster equipment to get the signal inside the tunnel as CSR coverage (if not NRN) is supposed to be continuous. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Authorise train to pass signal at danger and similar instructions 22/12/2009 at 14:00 #5253 | |
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taffy
28 posts |
Actual NRN coverage is rated as 95% of the UK railway network, therefore not all tunnels will have a good reception. Some tunnels have what is called a 'Leaky Feeder', which in simple terms is a cable running inside the tunnel, which has the screen partially open, allowing the trnasmitted signal within the cable to radiate outwards. I beleive this is used in the Severn Tunnel. Log in to reply |