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| Freight Train Regulation 14/06/2011 at 12:00 #16573 | |
Late Turn
699 posts |
Not quite exactly what I'm saying, but the same effect - a second train can't leave Wrawby until the first has cleared Barnetby's inner home (barring Reg 5 acceptance, which I doubt is authorised here). If I'm not mistaken (and I don't think I am!), the single line between KLS and Gainsborough is track-circuited throughout - so no need to observe tail lamps. Log in to reply |
| Freight Train Regulation 14/06/2011 at 12:10 #16574 | |
onlydjw
456 posts |
Up to when it re-opened full time a couple of years ago, the signaller at Gainsborough Central had to wait until the train passed him with tail lamp complete, where as now he can gives out of section when it passes Thunnock, and thus send the train in the opposite direction immediately. This saves about 3-4 minutes per movement, either letting two trians in the same direction run closer together, or a train in the opposite direction enter the single line before the first train has been seen as complete with a tail lamp by the signaller. I think it's to do with axle counters, rather than track circuits, but there's some specific system they use of the Brigg line to enable this working practise (increases capacity quite noticably), and I know it was a right farce when they first tried it! God bless, Daniel Wilson Log in to reply |
| Freight Train Regulation 14/06/2011 at 12:26 #16575 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
Hmm, interesting. If, as I'd understood, the sections are TC'd throughout, then it would be unnecessary. It might explain the slightly unexpected sequence of events I've observed at Northorpe a couple of times though, where an Up train was run into the loop to allow a Down train - waiting north of the loop - to pass. Obviously it would have been quicker to run the Down train into the loop so the Up could run through under greens, but the Signalman wouldn't see the tail lamp off the Down. If that were the case though - why provide a reversibly signalled loop? Log in to reply |
| Freight Train Regulation 14/06/2011 at 14:09 #16577 | |
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onlydjw
456 posts |
I think that's the normal practice at Northorpe - many a times the Saturday dogbox has gone in the loop there, rather than the coal train it's booked to pass. I don't think track circuiting allows you to give out of section without seeing the tail lamp, I'd undertood it to be axle counters, as certain wagons (and some multiple units) don't activate track circuits very well (all units will 4 axles or less have to have an additional method of track circuit actuation). Axle counters pick everything up, including you walking past one with your safety boots on! God bless, Daniel Wilson Log in to reply |
| Freight Train Regulation 14/06/2011 at 14:32 #16578 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
A fair few locations rely on track circuits to give TOOS, and it's the whole basis of TCB! Anything that can't be relied upon to operate track circuits will be signalled under special arrangements.
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| Freight Train Regulation 14/06/2011 at 14:59 #16579 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
It is interesting to hear some of the different ways that single line traffic is controlled in the UK, here in Ireland on our main stretch of single line, Greystones - Roslare Europort, up until 2 years ago it was token operated with each loop being a 2 platformed station with the exception of Kilcoole, each station again with the exception of Kilcoole had their own box, they way passing worked for us (and still does under control of Greystones cabin) is the first train to arrive at the station would go onto the loop platform to sit, and the train in the opposite direction then gets greens through the main line platform, currently since 2004 Irish rail no longer have any freight services but they are looking to reintroduce freight in the near future, but due to train lenght restrictions in Ireland (loco and 7 coaches, or 8 coaches on EMU and DMU sets) freight speeds are the same as pax so freight regulation was never an issue for us, our regulation issue's are on the DART suburban line where intercity (mainly DMU) services to/from connolly station have a top operating speed of 125 KPH and our DART (EMU) have a top speed of 100 KPH, for roslare intercity service entering the suburban line at Bray, there is no where to bypass a dart between connolly and bray so the closest DART to a roslare service is always held to run behind the intercity train, while heading north bound DART services maybe held on the branch at Howth jn to allow an intercity (Dublin - Belfast Enterpise) or Dundalk/Drogheda commuter service to pass, other intercity and commuter sevices from connolly (Sligo - intercity, and Longford/Maynooth - commuter) leave the DART line straight away in connolly yard.
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| Freight Train Regulation 14/06/2011 at 15:41 #16580 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
afro09 said:the first train to arrive at the station would go onto the loop platform to sit, and the train in the opposite direction then gets greens through the main line platformUnless all stations were island platforms, sounds like it'd be quite inconvenient for passengers - not knowing which platform to be on until their train was just about to pull in? Log in to reply |
| Freight Train Regulation 14/06/2011 at 16:57 #16581 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
Presumably if everything was running to time, the first train booked to arrive would also be booked to run into the loop platform? Whether they'd deviate from booked platforms in the case of a delay to that first train, I don't know.
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| Freight Train Regulation 14/06/2011 at 20:08 #16590 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
there is no booked platforms for the roslare route but the signallers when the stations had boxes where also the ticket clerks so anyone entering the station would be told which platform there train would arrive on as the siggnaller could tell which train would arrive first from the current locations of the 2 trains. since the boxes have been done away with, the station clerk will receive a phone call 10 mins before the first train is due to arrive from the greystones signal man informing the clerk of which train will arrive on which platform, in turn the clerk will the make regular announcements over the station loudspeaker right up to both trains arrivals informing passangers of which platform they need to be on, there is also not a crossing of trains at every station, as at present there are only 3 down and 3 up roslare intercity services per day with an additional 2 up and 1 down cummuter services to wexford and 1 up and 2 down commuter services to gorey. for anyone interested the roslare route is as follows....................... Dublin Connolly - Tara Street - Dublin Pearse - Dun Laoghaire - Bray - Greystones - Kilcoole - Wicklow - Rathdrum - Arklow - Gorey - Enniscorthy - Wexford - Roslare Strand - Roslare Europort. (Roslare Europort intercity services do not serve Kilcoole). Log in to reply |
| Freight Train Regulation 16/06/2011 at 19:47 #16653 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
Late Turn said:If I'm not mistaken (and I don't think I am!), the single line between KLS and Gainsborough is track-circuited throughout - so no need to observe tail lamps. Time to eat humble pie, I think. I've had time to look through a few photos online, and they seem to show, between them, very little in the way of track circuiting between KLS and Gainsborough. That raises another question for me though - Northorpe's N4 signal is a mile or three in rear of Northorpe itself, in the Up direction on the single line. There appears to be a short track circuit in rear of that (and continuous track circuiting from there to the next stop signal, N5). Can anyone shed any light on the purpose of N4? Assuming the lack of track circuiting (and, apparantly until recently, the lack of other means of proving train complete) means that Northorpe can't knock out to Gainsborough until the train's passed Northorpe 'box, it doesn't really help to break the section. All that I can think is that it's intended to protect the manned crossing (whose name escapes me at present) between N4 and Northorpe. Log in to reply |
| Freight Train Regulation 17/06/2011 at 01:23 #16659 | |
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Lardybiker
771 posts |
Lateturn...I don't know what photos you have seen but the information I have shows you were right first time and there are TC's between Gainsborough and Northorpe. If N4 is protecting a crossing then it's likely to be Bonsall Lane which has manually hand operated gates.
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| Freight Train Regulation 17/06/2011 at 07:47 #16663 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
Bonsall Lane's the one I was thinking of! There's a good set of photos on Flickr (which I can't get at from work but I'll get links later if you haven't found them) showing the box diagrams for Gainsborough Central, Northorpe and KLS, and they suggest that there's no track circuiting Thonock to N4 signal (apart from a short TC in rear of each). Happy to be corrected though if my interpretation's wrong. Tom Log in to reply |
| Freight Train Regulation 17/06/2011 at 08:54 #16665 | |
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onlydjw
456 posts |
As I said earlier, up to a few years ago (when the line re-opened full time), there was no method for detecting a complete train was clear of the sections electrically, and so the signaller had to see the tail lamp before giving out of section. This changed at that time with the introduction of a new system, which I believe has something to do with axle counters, rather than full track circuits. The man I need to speak to on this is on holiday at the moment, but I will report back when I next speak to him. The date of the photos will be significant as to whether you have pre-re-opening or post-re-opening system.
God bless, Daniel Wilson Log in to reply |
| Freight Train Regulation 17/06/2011 at 09:03 #16666 | |
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onlydjw
456 posts |
Scunthorpe area notes updated with the real guidelines used. 17 June. If anyone has used these elsewhere, please update them!
God bless, Daniel Wilson Log in to reply |
| Freight Train Regulation 17/06/2011 at 12:04 #16670 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
Daniel's notes have been added to the WIKI here.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Freight Train Regulation 20/06/2011 at 10:00 #16762 | |
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Night Man
6 posts |
Regarding the Brigg line, i'm not sure exactly how it works but the single line sections are worked by direction levers. For example the signalman at Northorpe will press a plunger which I believe sends a current along the non track circuited section of line. This confirms if the line is clear and allows the signalman at Gainsborough Central to reverse their direction lever which in turn releases the signals at Northorpe. When it was first put in, the system allowed you to give out of section before seeing the tail lamp of the trains. When the line became Saturday only due to 'rusty rails' the tracks could not be relied upon so this is when it became necessary for the signalmen to see the tail lamps of the trains before giving out of section. If a Down train was detained in Northorpe loop for an Up train to pass the driver was required to walk to the back of his train to confirm it was complete before the Up train was allowed to run. Since the line has re opened full time and is getting regular traffic the original method of working has been returned to use. As far as N4 signal goes I presume it is there to break the section up, i'm only guessing though. Once a train from Gainsborough has passed the overlap of N4 signal out of section can be sent. Hope this helps.
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| Freight Train Regulation 05/07/2011 at 10:48 #17233 | |
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onlydjw
456 posts |
Just a note to say the main regulation notes have been updated as at 5 July 2011. See the first post in this topic.
God bless, Daniel Wilson Log in to reply |
| Freight Train Regulation 05/07/2011 at 14:40 #17239 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
onlydjw said:I think that's the normal practice at Northorpe - many a times the Saturday dogbox has gone in the loop there, rather than the coal train it's booked to pass. Track circuiting certainly makes it possible to clear back before seeing tail lamp (& there are special instructions for the limited range of vehicles not guaranteed to operate track circuits). Whether it is possible in any given case will be a matter of what's in the Signal Box Instructions (aka Block Card or Footnotes in some areas); if the SBIs authorise it you do it, if they don't you mustn't. Log in to reply |
| Re: Freight Train Regulation 15/07/2011 at 21:17 #17765 | |
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nigscott8
3 posts |
hi your right the signal can hold a train at this signal to keep the passage of trains but i must inform. this signal NOT a IBH a very important update ,it use to be but is NOT now there is some drivers out there that think the sign has fallen off. It was a white board horizontal black line meaning IBH ( i know iam going on abit) The problem is as a driver you could pass this signal with your own orthority if it was an IBH but as it is a controlled signal now you can not. reson being brock could be doing a shunt on to the up to the dolly (i think B125) the train could be in line for head on if passed on own orthority. hope this helps .. imm driver dbs nige Log in to reply |
| Re: Freight Train Regulation 15/07/2011 at 21:20 #17766 | |
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Lordmwa
148 posts |
" said:hi your right the signal can hold a train at this signal to keep the passage of trains but i must inform. this signal NOT a IBH a very important update ,it use to be but is NOT now there is some drivers out there that think the sign has fallen off.Hello and welcome to the forum! Log in to reply |
| Re: Freight Train Regulation 15/07/2011 at 21:28 #17768 | |
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nigscott8
3 posts |
correction vertical line sorry god am good.
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| Re: Freight Train Regulation 18/07/2011 at 08:55 #17934 | |
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Night Man
6 posts |
The route to the LOS at Brock was never signed in when the panel was put in because of 22 being an IBH, and still hasn't been as far as I know !
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| Re: Freight Train Regulation 18/07/2011 at 21:45 #17961 | |
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nigscott8
3 posts |
hi i spoke to chris in the box today and asked him what it now said on the lever . he said brockelsby forward section, but also agreed it was an ibh but ...never to mistake it for its old name for our sake ie (signalman or driver)... on the other hand ive never seen a move at brock on to the up yet. anyway i was hoping some nice reader may have a picy of the old new barnetby /melton ross box thats what directed me to this site , very intresting and a good one also. cheers nige Log in to reply |
| Re: Freight Train Regulation 19/07/2011 at 05:28 #17964 | |
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Night Man
6 posts |
I think the LOS was put there for shunting across for SLW although the only time i've known moves towards it have been SLW Ulceby/Brocklesby - Barnetby/Wrawby over the Up or an engine going facing road to assist a failure. Whenever there has been any SLW it's always been done through to Ulceby to make it easier than shunting across at Brock. I might have a pic of Melton Ross Sidings box at home somewhere, i'll have a dig round and pass it on to Chris if I find one. John, Imm Rec. Log in to reply |