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Great Northern 12car platforms

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Great Northern 12car platforms 05/06/2012 at 14:31 #32789
ipswich
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247 posts 		Afternoon all

im trying to compile a list of 12car compatible stations on the ECML/Hertford loop

here is a list i have

Kings X platforms 1-8
Stevenage
Hitchin
Letchworth
Royston
Cambridge
Ely
St Neots
Huntingdon
Peterborough Platforms 2-5

if i have missed any please let me know

thanks callum
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 05/06/2012 at 14:53 #32792
Peter Bennet
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5402 posts
Online 		Think that's about it but shortly you can add Sandy, Biggleswade and Arlesey -Sandy was pretty far on last time I passed.

Peter
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 05/06/2012 at 14:57 #32793
Peter Bennet
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5402 posts
Online 		Just thought what about Finsbury Park? I'm pretty certain we had 12 car sets on the emergency timetable a few year ago when KX box was closed for two days and everything started/terminated there. Also the night of the Kings Cross underground fire trains like the sleeper stopped there.

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 05/06/2012 at 15:00 #32795
ipswich
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247 posts 		the ones im unsure are

Kings Lynn and Finsbury Park


and yes peter i went that way saturday just gone and they are getting on with it
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 05/06/2012 at 15:14 #32797
Peter Bennet
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5402 posts
Online 		Rule of the Plan says

FP : Plat 1 - 257m: 2 - 249m: 3- 174m: 4 - 178m: 5 - 166m: 6 -168m

Kings Lynn Plat 1 - 220m: 2 - 175m

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 05/06/2012 at 15:15 #32798
UKTrainMan
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1803 posts 		They are currently working on '12-car-ing' Finsbury Park. As I understand it, the platform extension will go over the road bridge to the north of the station. Not fully sure if it's all three island platforms being extended, but one would imagine it will be.
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 05/06/2012 at 15:17 #32799
ipswich
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247 posts 		im suprised that Welwyn Garden City cant handle 12car trains any idea if it will happen
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 05/06/2012 at 15:19 #32800
Peter Bennet
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5402 posts
Online 		I know they are doing a lot of work at Finsbury Park related to the disused Up side platforms, I think they maybe doing lengthening work as well. I get off at FP every day but I've never really hung around to see what's happening.

Peter
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 05/06/2012 at 15:24 #32801
Peter Bennet
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5402 posts
Online 		" said:
im suprised that Welwyn Garden City cant handle 12car trains any idea if it will happen
Not sure if there is enough free space without shifting the track; will need to remember to look tomorrow. I know that the new TL trains are to be fixed formation 12 car, is there to be a shorter version as well, can't remember. If not then places South of Stevenage will lose their "Outer suburban" service I guess.

Peter
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 05/06/2012 at 15:41 #32803
Peter Bennet
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Online 		Appears that 1200 carriages have been ordered for TL routes. The 319 and 365 fleets numbered 508 carriages originally (I believe) so that's over twice the capacity - wow.


Peter
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 05/06/2012 at 16:22 #32808
mfcooper
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707 posts 		" said:
Appears that 1200 carriages have been ordered for TL routes. The 319 and 365 fleets numbered 508 carriages originally (I believe) so that's over twice the capacity - wow.
Peter
Well, the new Thameslink franchise will include the existing Thameslink, Great Northern and Southern franchises. Also, some parts of the Southeastern franchise are to be added at some point. So actually 1200 carridges isn't that many...
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 05/06/2012 at 17:34 #32817
Steamer
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3985 posts
Online 		" said:
" said:
Appears that 1200 carriages have been ordered for TL routes. The 319 and 365 fleets numbered 508 carriages originally (I believe) so that's over twice the capacity - wow.
Peter
Well, the new Thameslink franchise will include the existing Thameslink, Great Northern and Southern franchises. Also, some parts of the Southeastern franchise are to be added at some point. So actually 1200 carridges isn't that many...
On top of that, I think some of the older London stock is going north when the Manchester area electrification is finished, so presumably some of the 1200 carriages will replace, rather than complement, existing stock.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 05/06/2012 at 17:39 #32819
postal
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5265 posts 		" said:
On top of that, I think some of the older London stock is going north when the Manchester area electrification is finished, so presumably some of the 1200 carriages will replace, rather than complement, existing stock.
Certainly what the Railway Gazette International was saying in June last year.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 05/06/2012 at 18:01 #32824
Peter Bennet
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5402 posts
Online 		" said:
" said:
" said:
Appears that 1200 carriages have been ordered for TL routes. The 319 and 365 fleets numbered 508 carriages originally (I believe) so that's over twice the capacity - wow.
Peter
Well, the new Thameslink franchise will include the existing Thameslink, Great Northern and Southern franchises. Also, some parts of the Southeastern franchise are to be added at some point. So actually 1200 carridges isn't that many...
On top of that, I think some of the older London stock is going north when the Manchester area electrification is finished, so presumably some of the 1200 carriages will replace, rather than complement, existing stock.
Yes I'd taken that as given.

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 14/06/2012 at 12:40 #33075
ajax103
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1120 posts 		Kings Cross Platforms 0 to 8
Finsbury Park Platforms 1 & 2
Stevenage
Hitchin
Letchworth
Royston
Cambridge
Ely
St Neots
Huntingdon
Peterborough Platforms 2-5

To be using 12 car trains in Dec 2012 timetable

Arlesey
Biggleswade
Sandy

Also note that Stevenage will undergo major PW work to have the platforms extended, this means the relocation of the OHL and the trackwork.
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 14/06/2012 at 13:47 #33077
Peter Bennet
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5402 posts
Online 		Why does Stevenage need lengthened platforms, are there plans to lengthen EC trains?

As regards December changes and the 3 Bedfordshire GN stations the following is what I've been told.

"In December 2012 the 8-carriage 06.40 Huntingdon to King's Cross service will be withdrawn (this runs all stations from Huntingdon to Arlesey and then non-stop to King's Cross).

This will allow us to extend to 12 carriages the 8-carriage 06.32 and 07.33 Peterborough to King's Cross services (these run all stations from Peterborough to Stevenage and then Finsbury Park)

In the evening, the 17.10 King's Cross to Peterborough service will be reduced from 12 carriages to eight (this calls at Hitchin, St Neot's and Huntingon) which allows us to increase the 1744 and 18.14 King's Cross to Peterborough from eight carriages to 12 (calls at Finsbury Park, Stevenage, Hitchin and then all stations to Peterborough)."
The evening changes don't make mathematical sense but there you go!

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 14/06/2012 at 15:57 #33080
Copping
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95 posts 		Peter,

The've probably reduced coaches on services where less passengers use that service and put on more coaches on where trains are likely to be standing room only.

Southern did this a couple of years back, they did a survey on the under used peak time services. I have no idea with GN if they've done the same or not.

Looking at the proposed services for Thameslink, does seem intense. Not sure if its being supplemented by the 377/2 and 377'5 that Southern have for their services. Not all new trains for Thameslink are going to be 12 car, I understand there will be some 8 car versions as the 'Wimbledon Loop' stations wont accomodate more than 12 cars.
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 14/06/2012 at 16:29 #33081
ajax103
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1120 posts 		" said:
Why does Stevenage need lengthened platforms, are there plans to lengthen EC trains?

As regards December changes and the 3 Bedfordshire GN stations the following is what I've been told.

"In December 2012 the 8-carriage 06.40 Huntingdon to King's Cross service will be withdrawn (this runs all stations from Huntingdon to Arlesey and then non-stop to King's Cross).

This will allow us to extend to 12 carriages the 8-carriage 06.32 and 07.33 Peterborough to King's Cross services (these run all stations from Peterborough to Stevenage and then Finsbury Park)

In the evening, the 17.10 King's Cross to Peterborough service will be reduced from 12 carriages to eight (this calls at Hitchin, St Neot's and Huntingon) which allows us to increase the 1744 and 18.14 King's Cross to Peterborough from eight carriages to 12 (calls at Finsbury Park, Stevenage, Hitchin and then all stations to Peterborough)."
The evening changes don't make mathematical sense but there you go!

Peter

Stevenage is getting longer platforms as well as Peterborough simply to cater for the new Thameslink trains which are longer then the existing trains but also I believe to cater for IEP as well.

Pretty good source for this as they're operationally responsible for the GN so very senior indeed
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 14/06/2012 at 18:41 #33087
Peter Bennet
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5402 posts
Online 		" said:
Peter,

The've probably reduced coaches on services where less passengers use that service and put on more coaches on where trains are likely to be standing room only.
Yes but within the context of the quote- to reduce a 12 to 8 and then increase 2 8's to 2 12 is not mathematically possible.


" said:
" said:
Why does Stevenage need lengthened platforms, are there plans to lengthen EC trains?

As regards December changes and the 3 Bedfordshire GN stations the following is what I've been told.

"In December 2012 the 8-carriage 06.40 Huntingdon to King's Cross service will be withdrawn (this runs all stations from Huntingdon to Arlesey and then non-stop to King's Cross).

This will allow us to extend to 12 carriages the 8-carriage 06.32 and 07.33 Peterborough to King's Cross services (these run all stations from Peterborough to Stevenage and then Finsbury Park)

In the evening, the 17.10 King's Cross to Peterborough service will be reduced from 12 carriages to eight (this calls at Hitchin, St Neot's and Huntingon) which allows us to increase the 1744 and 18.14 King's Cross to Peterborough from eight carriages to 12 (calls at Finsbury Park, Stevenage, Hitchin and then all stations to Peterborough)."
The evening changes don't make mathematical sense but there you go!

Peter

Stevenage is getting longer platforms as well as Peterborough simply to cater for the new Thameslink trains which are longer then the existing trains but also I believe to cater for IEP as well.

Pretty good source for this as they're operationally responsible for the GN so very senior indeed :)
According to Table G of section 4.2 of the Thameslink tender document there will be 59x240m and 54x160m fixed formation trains. I believe a 12 car 365 is around 150m long.

Had a look at the IEP tender documents and it looks like the nominal train length will be 260m but there should be a capability to extend to a maximum of 312m (in service) and twice that in rescue situations!

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 14/06/2012 at 19:39 #33088
ipswich
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247 posts 		12car 365s are about 240m peter

80m approx per 4 cars
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 14/06/2012 at 19:50 #33089
Peter Bennet
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5402 posts
Online 		" said:
12car 365s are about 240m peter

80m approx per 4 cars
I was working on 20.89m per carriage but according to The Railway Centre it's 20.89m per driver and 20.06m non-drivers so to be precise it will be 245.7m - on these figures.

Peter
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Re: Great Northern 12car platforms 15/06/2012 at 17:36 #33106
metcontrol
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227 posts 		" said:

The've probably reduced coaches on services where less passengers use that service and put on more coaches on where trains are likely to be standing room only.
The now reasonably comfortable xx23 and xx53 King's Cross to Royston services in the evening peak will no doubt be reduced from an all-seated 8 to a standing 4-car. Unusual services in that they tend to favour the branch stations - and such things in the past have always been the first to go. Apart from Letchworth, Royston and Cambridge, the "other" stations on the branch tend to always get the rough end of the bargain when things change. No lengthening in sight yet (Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton have yet to become 8 cars long, let alone 12).
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